From Blu-ray to small AVCHD files

[ligou]

The TMPGEnc Xpress last version (4.5.2.255) opens new shrinking possibilities. AVCHD files (h.264) can now be outputed, so we may expect small mp4 files preserving the intial quality.
As an example, I have chosen the BluRay "Big Fish" by Tim Burton.
Step1: Ripping with AnyDVD HD
Step2 : In the folder STREAM we see a very large file 00003.m2ts (35 Go)
Step3 -We run TSmuxer: we add the above file, then we remove all audio files except French and finally we choose M2TS Muxing and press Start Muxing.
Step 4- The new .m2ts file is smaller (24 Go) and can be played back with PowerDVD Ultra, VLC or WMP11. We could stop here and burn this result on a blank BD-RE

Most people are acquainted with this shrinking method, but one can do a better job.

Step 5 We load into TMPGEnc the last .m2ts file. Fortunately this kind of file is accepted as input. We could make some editing, but we press OK to continue.
Step 6 In the Tab format, we choose the output MPEG-4 and 8Mbps for the birate because TMPGEnc tells us that the expected file size will be less than 8.5 GB.
6 - Encoding : be patient, you have to wait for 8-10 hours, depending on your computer (mine is DELL Core2 Duo, 2.66 MHZ, Ram 2 GB)
7 Results: File size : about 8.26 GB, Quality apparenly the same. The Tim_Fr.mp4 file has been burnt onto a DVD+R DL and could be played back from this disc on a standard DVD-Rom drive.

[Adbear]

There's no way you could drop the bitrate down to 8mbps and expect the quality to be the same. There will definitely be a drop in quality, especially in fast movement sections as you could be dropping from a maximum of 40+mbps peak to maximum of 8mbps peak

[peterbus]

There's no way you could drop the bitrate down to 8mbps and expect the quality to be the same. There will definitely be a drop in quality, especially in fast movement sections as you could be dropping from a maximum of 40+mbps peak to maximum of 8mbps peak
thats correct,i use the hauppague hd-pvr to shrink my blu-ray movies and find anything under 13mbps unreliable,but the quality above this is excellent ,avchd isent bad for storing hd content.:rock:

[Curtis]

Besides knowing that you can, what exactly would the point of this be?
I can see converting to reducing down to mpeg2 to a dvd if you have dvd players you use in other places you can't play the bluray but do not see the point in reducing the quality to fit on DVD media with a codec incompatible with DVD players.
I can also understand reducing down the bitrate and size for your portable player (to a codec it likes) and of course am all for whoever comes up with a simple movie & single audio track ripper so that it might be a reasonable cost and effort to store them on my HDD.
But again, why spend as much as 2x more money for a higher rez movie to reduce the quality w/o a purpose like increased compatibility?

[ligou]

I don't agree with the too short comment of Adbear.
The original files are HD-MPEG2 with 25Mbps but one cannot logically compare bit rates between MPEG2 and AVCHD as they are two different formats.

I would almost agree with peterbus when he says that 13Mbps is a good bitrate which preserves the video quality; perhaps mine (8 Mbps) was a little bit too low. But he should know that more and more HD camcorders use AVCHD on memory cards, so the AVCHD format is not so bad. Why it was proposed? Because of the file size reduction for the same quality!
I own a Sony HDV camcorder which records HD-MEG2 on a mini DV tape. Like many users, I make conversion to WMV files, the Windows Media Player (WMP11)format with a 8Mbps bitrate as recommended by Microsoft. You can find a lot of DRM free HD-WMV clips on its site (wmvhd.com) with a very good quality (maybe better than Blu-Ray).
I have not tried to go this way with BluRay because the encoding time is huge.

To Curtis : I do not try to make standard DVDs, I want to keep HD with the best quality on standard supports. Why? I have a USB universal player (Blu-Ray and HD-DVD), therefore I don't need these conversions for myself. I try to burn high definition movies onto DVD+R DL because I could use them elsewhere. I intend also to record many HD movies on external hard disks like WD passport (on a 360 GB disc you can store more than 30 mp4 files).

A final comment
Many years ago, we knew that HD movies did not require new support, provided powerful formats would be used. Of course Sony and Toshiba wanted to sell new optical drives; so if you don't choose the right format we will be forced to use their devices.

[Adbear]

I work in video editing, and know that it's not going to come out with the same quality. For some reason you're saying 25mbps mpeg2 is the source, but that sounds like it would be HDV you're referring to not from full Blu-ray, if you take a standard Blu-ray which can be in Mpeg2, H264 or VC-1 and try to keep it at 1920x1080p and you drop the bitrate down as low as 8 then there will definitely be a drop in quality. Even dropping down HDV mpeg2 from 25mbps to 8mbps h264 will give you a drop in quality. I know as I have to deal with this type of thing every day with building, testing and supporting Video editing systems.

We have done a lot of testing and have found that with AVCHD cameras you really need to set it to the highest bitrate the camera can do to get better quality. Having tested with cameras that have an option of around 12-18 you can really see the difference between the 12mbps and the 18mbps especially on movement.

Also you're confusing Mpeg2 and AVCHD. Mpeg2 is a codec, AVCHD is a wrapper and can also be Mpeg2

As to your last comment I find it flawed, of course we needed new support for HD, even playing decent HD mpeg2 requires a faster system than was available and the technology wasn't there to be able to play it out. To preserve the quality you need a higher bitrate which in turns requires faster technology to process it. Even if you get a lower bitrate from H264 and WMV you then need an even more powerful system to play them back in. So you have the option of encoding it in mpeg2 (higher bitrate) which means larger files which in turn means larger media needed to store it on, or H264/WMV which means lower bitrate but then needs more powerful systems to decode. So either way you would need upgraded hardware and software to be able to play it back

[ligou]

I agree with you about AVCHD; it is only a container. In the movie "Big Fish" we deal with HD-MPEG2 files. I should have called my output format MPEG-4 AVC, the name given by TMPGEnc experts.
I fully agree with your last sentence " Even if you get a lower bitrate from H264 and WMV you then need an even more powerful system to play them back in. So you have the option of encoding it in mpeg2 (higher bitrate) which means larger files which in turn means larger media needed to store it on, or H264/WMV which means lower bitrate but then needs more powerful systems to decode. So either way you would need upgraded hardware and software to be able to play it back "
I come back to the hdwmv format. Microsoft people said that 8Mbps was enough to play back hdwmv files on a P4 3Gz. I have checked that they have really used this bitrate to encode their demo clips (Full HD-1920*1080p). Today most computer are powerful enough to decode these files. As you mentioned HDV is not FullHD and I will probably repeat with the wmv format what I have already done with MPEG-4.

[Adbear]

Even on HD DVD's they never went below 12mbps for VC-1(and they were a bit poor quality wise)

[raymondtrudeau]

iam trying this out...looks good so far..


6 - Encoding : be patient, you have to wait for 8-10 hours, depending on your computer (mine is DELL Core2 Duo, 2.66 MHZ, Ram 2 GB)
7 Results: File size : about 8.26 GB, Quality apparenly the same. The Tim_Fr.mp4 file has been burnt onto a DVD+R DL and could be played back from this disc on a standard DVD-Rom drive.
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how did you burn it? with img burn and what settings in image burn do you have to use? thanks

[ligou]

Hi !Raymondtrudeau.
I am happy to know that you are interested in what I am doing.
When I have finished the huge encoding task, I introduce a blank DVD+R DL disk in the BE06LU10 drive (I have in my PC a DVD burner which only accepts Single Layer disks).
Then I run Roxio Creator, DELL gave me for free when I bought my last computer. I choose the option Data Disk and give a Label to this disk. By drag an drop I transfer my mp4 file from the Computer Hard Disk to the Roxio Creator window and I press the red button. If my file is too large, I am informed and I leave Roxio Creator. My disk is still blank, and can be used later on.
If my file is accepted, the burning process is achieved within 30-45 minutes.
Then my disk can be played back on a standard DVD-Rom drive with PowerDVD Ultra or VLC (file option).

If you want to make several tests, you will not work with a full movie. In TSmuxer you can leave the job at any time by pressing the button Abort, information about progres is given on the top of the Window. This short clip keeps the initial quality.
I will undertake comparisons between mp4 and wmv formats with such a small .m2ts file.

[raymondtrudeau]

iam trying i robot...my computer is old and has only 1 processor it says it will take 30+ hours....ouch ha ha

[pkh]

AVCHD disc works great with PS3. I have close to 200 HDDVD but no standalone player. Usually I use HTPC and Projector but it is fun to burn compressed HDDVD to DVD as AVCHD and playback with my PS3 and HDTV. In normal watching distance and 40" LCD TV picture is good enough for me.

One great feature of using tsmuxer is adding subtitles you like which may not be possible with the original disc. Also you can throw in different soundtrack/language and chapter points as long as the disc can fit.

[ligou]

I should comment on my previous post:
1- As mentioned by Adbear AVCHD is not a codec, I should have used MPEG-4 AVC as a correct name. This option proposed by TMPGEnc is based on the well known Main Concept codec.
2- I have repeated mp4 conversions with variable bitrates (VBR) : 8 Mbps for the average value and 13 Mbps for the maximum. My tests were based on a small part of the movie "Black Hawk Down" .The file sizes were the same as before (they only depend on average values), but I could observe a better video quality when fast movments occured. If we need, PowerDVD Ultra displays at any time the bitrate values, but in such a test, they did not change so much.
3 - I have also made a few wmv encoding with 8 Mbps (the Microsoft recommended value). The overall quality looks like the same as mp4, but the encoding time is 2 times larger, so I will abandon this approah to file size reduction.
4 -To raymondtrudeau. With a rather old PC, 30 hours for the encoding time with the Main Concept Codec seems a reasonable estimate. With my Core 2 duo CPU (2.66 GHz) I need 8-10 hours for a 2 hours movie.
When you sleep during night, your PC is allowed to work!