ReClock chitchat

[leeperry]

it still baffles as to why you'd accept to be a paying beta-tester for AMD :confused:

it's like back in the CPU days, they were -maybe- killing Intel at the same clock speed...but their CPU's were as wonky as can be...poor SSE support and all kind of issues.

maybe you card is 15% faster than the nvidia equivalent, but nvidia cards just plain work...get a Gainward, and you're good to go :)

I've flashed my rebadged 8800GS firmware to disable the power management options(I'm afraid it'd kick in during a movie and make Reclock lose its timings)...but I was also doing it on the ATi :p

you get proper custom res support right away, no resident apps made by a 10yo in Visual Basic(yes, you know exactly what I'm referring to :D), no more buggy pstrip, CUDA support...superior PQ(IMHO), even the RGB32 conversions from YV12/YUY2 are very impressive! ATi just does a crappy "point resize" chroma upscale, and hopes noone would notice...pathetic.

and all the games go through the "nvidia, the way it's mean to be played" program...the ATi drivers ppl have to reverse engineer the games and patch their drivers somehow...they just got it all terribly wrong from the ground up IMO.

[VPhile jr.]

On the ATI front, is there any improvement in the latest HD5670/HD5xxx generation (surely there will be some last word at avforums shortly). They look as very appropriate solution for htpc (video/audio) needs, especially because of no need for external power supply (just onboard PCI juice) - very low power/heat demands. That's where the green team CAN'T compete with the only exception of their ION/Cuda system, but that's different rank..

[leeperry]

no need for external power supply (just onboard PCI juice) - very low power/heat demands. That's where the green team CAN'T compete
there's many "green" nvidia cards that can live w/ the 75W of the PCI-E bus..it's not like you'd need to run a card that can run Crysis in 1080p for a HTPC, and CoreAVC CUDA is the HTPC's best friend IMO.

[somy]

it still baffles as to why you'd accept to be a paying beta-tester for AMD :confused:

it's like back in the CPU days, they were -maybe- killing Intel at the same clock speed...but their CPU's were as wonky as can be...poor SSE support and all kind of issues.

maybe you card is 15% faster than the nvidia equivalent, but nvidia cards just plain work...get a Gainward, and you're good to go :)

I've flashed my rebadged 8800GS firmware to disable the power management options(I'm afraid it'd kick in during a movie and make Reclock lose its timings)...but I was also doing it on the ATi :p

you get proper custom res support right away, no resident apps made by a 10yo in Visual Basic(yes, you know exactly what I'm referring to :D), no more buggy pstrip, CUDA support...superior PQ(IMHO), even the RGB32 conversions from YV12/YUY2 are very impressive! ATi just does a crappy "point resize" chroma upscale, and hopes noone would notice...pathetic.

and all the games go through the "nvidia, the way it's mean to be played" program...the ATi drivers ppl have to reverse engineer the games and patch their drivers somehow...they just got it all terribly wrong from the ground up IMO.

IMO, ATI 5000 series graphic card is still the best choice nowadays because it outputs TrueHD DTS HD bitstream. Anyway, it's not a discussion of if A is worse than N.

[leeperry]

IMO, ATI 5000 series graphic card is still the best choice nowadays because it outputs TrueHD DTS HD bitstream.
..which is completely useless if you wanna watch butter smooth movies, as Reclock cannot mess w/ bitstream.

"ouh sound is awesome, but picture keeps hiccuping...still love it, though!" :D

feed FLAC to Reclock w/ a high oversampling rate, transport it over HDMI as PCM...and there you go :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

Well, ION/CUDA may suffice for total audio/video purists, but some couch freaks also need to run intellectual-entertainment applications such as ... (in my case filling in: vintage pinball tables), and that's demanding 2D-3D gfx..

Obviously, for true computer simulations (Crysis is for kiddies) like flying/racing I've got a dedicated/noisy rig.

[VPhile jr.]

IMO, ATI 5000 series graphic card is still the best choice nowadays because it outputs TrueHD DTS HD bitstream. Anyway, it's not a discussion of if A is worse than N.

Is it a standard feature for the entire HD5xxx line?
I thought this is true only for some special htpc series like HD 5550/5570??

[somy]

Is it a standard feature for the entire HD5xxx line?
I thought this is true only for some special htpc series like HD 5550/5570??

As I read, the entire line of 5000 graphics card support that.

[Jong]

The entire 5xxx line supports it.

I agree it is not true that A is better than N. Each have their own peculiarities. Personally I love the 5xxx for HTPC use.

[somy]

..which is completely useless if you wanna watch butter smooth movies, as Reclock cannot mess w/ bitstream.

"ouh sound is awesome, but picture keeps hiccuping...still love it, though!" :D

feed FLAC to Reclock w/ a high oversampling rate, transport it over HDMI as PCM...and there you go :agree:

If you can keep display refresh rate as 23.976, you wouldn't/shouldn't notice lip sync problem. And in HDMI, I can turn on lip sync feature so that my AMP will do adjustment for me automatically. Anyway, bitstream TrueHD has definately much better sound quality than DTS/AC3

[leeperry]

If you can keep display refresh rate as 23.976, you wouldn't/shouldn't notice lip sync problem.
smooth video playback w/o Reclock audio resampling is illusional IMHO.

[somy]

smooth video playback w/o Reclock audio resampling is illusional IMHO.

Well, that's because the clock in sound card is different from the clock in graphics, but the margin is not noticable.

[leeperry]

Well, that's because the clock in sound card is different from the clock in graphics, but the margin is not noticable.
you're a newcomer to Reclock, aren't you?

watch movies w/ Reclock in 24/48Hz for a while, then disable it...you will suffer, I can pretty much guarantee you that :p

[somy]

you're a newcomer to Reclock, aren't you?

watch movies w/ Reclock in 24/48Hz for a while, then disable it...you will suffer, I can pretty much guarantee you that :p

You're right, I'm new to ReClock.
But I don't know how reclock helps with smooth playback when FPS is the same as refresh rate......

[leeperry]

you could try reading Reclock's manual ;)

[VPhile jr.]

I just entered the Volumouse universe, and so far so cool.
For Kernel streaming/*WinAMP I can change the master volume, ok great.
But when playing with ReClock/MPC (via Dsound) and every slider in the windows default mixer is maxed out (for reaching the bit perfect setup) I can't adjust the volume inside MPC or other player? Is it known limitation of Volumouse, is there another solution, or shall I get Kernel for MPC in the first place, so is it because of my temporary Dsound output?

*SQ sucks in comparison to ReClock renderer

--
Btw. there are at least two instructables for diy volume control via ps2 hardware, which is likely to have solid state encoder as opposed to optical (A4 Tech PS2 brand recommended), if you fancy the vintage stereo feel, you can make decent fixture for your contraption incl. metal case, bearing, heavy duty knob (e.g. sourced in one package from old floppy drive + luxury stereo knob). http://www.instructables.com/id/Computer_scroll_wheel_bearings_version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUWs788NEns&feature=related
(floppy bearing in detail towards the end of the video)

another tutorial incl. video called Powerfake:
http://www.slashgear.com/powerfake-diy-griffin-powermate-tutorial-0340041/

!now version w. added new encoder between pcb switch3 pins(pcb) and old encoder pins(pcb):
http://www.cdle.net/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=41&Id=29772&page=1&star=1
another disassembly, pcb detail: http://home.roadrunner.com/~maccody/robotics/mouse_hack/mouse_hack.html
grffin + mouse wheel hack: http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/input-devices/134029-griffin-powermate-converted-send-mouse-wheel.html

--
http://www.thequartermastergeneral.com/images/catalog/buttons/round_tins.jpg
alternatively source the case from tin box/case (Zippo, oval/round candy, etc..)
http://www.chinapack.com.tw/tin_box_catalog.htm
http://www.magister.sk/images/vtrenrgbrst.jpg
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3857/plechovkrabikaenergitze9.jpg
vitamin tin box / sticky cover foil

http://www.tasky-krabicky.cz/index_soubory/11767185471777200.jpg
plain style

http://shop.dela.cz/images/s30776-vonna-svicka-skorice-plechova-doza.jpg
or here as oil lamp

In addition, more skilled hacker can fix it up from real encoder parts and usb module. These are Griffin Powermate clones as I don't feel plunking down north of $50 delivered for a device with such controversial reviews. Similar devices by Contour ShuttleXpress and 3Dconnexion SpaceNavigator have more positive reviews but are even more expensive.

[Mark_A_W]

Player volume controls don't work with KS or Wasapi...that's part of the whole point of the renderers (unmolested audio).

[VPhile jr.]

Pls. read my post again, I know that, I have no prob with Kernel! I'm asking about Dsound solution if there is any worth doing, just to explain I have too many computers, and just one "quality" usb audio card. So, often times I need to play with Dsound only..

[leeperry]

I got the griffin for $30 second hand on ebay, most ppl bought it..but never used it.

most of the bad reviews you can find on amazon and so are about the 1.3 windows drivers, that seemed to really stink! but the 2.0 work damn fine, it pretty much does everything I want :)

it supports the previous/next buttons for itunes, but not the standard windows buttons you could find on a smart PC keyboard..that's the only thing I see missing, but griffin is macintosh company in the first place :rolleyes:

I use it in conjunction w/ volumouse, and it's 100% dynamite :agree:

I've set it to the highest sensitivity and very small steps in volumouse...it works like a dream!

if I push it, it mutes and if I push it + turn it either ways it does previous/next in MPC and KMP..simply a daydream! of course you can disable the blue LED.

well, I hate DS as an old time nocebo...KMixer does sound ugly, but you'd need to look up further discussions on head-fi for instance: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/directsound-good-asio-ks-394077/

it's been discussed w/ audio drivers engineers(that are bit-perfect obsessed), and to them if you have all the sliders at the top and only play ONE stream = bit-perfect goodness...KMixer would not be as retarded as we'd been led to believe, after all.

thing is, bit-perfect is nice and all..but we do need volume attenuation(and it's not a crappy analog pot that'll make things any better :o)

the KXDrivers software engineers said that the windows master volume is always hardware accelerated by design in the WDM model...so a wild guess would be that as long as you have the WAVE slider at the top, you're mostly getting the same SQ as KS.

DIY Powermate's are nice, but they lack the drivers part..Volumouse cannot identify wheels from different devices(I discussed it w/ its author, he said he couldn't find a way to do it), so you'd have to make a macro in AutoHotkey sending hotkeys to Volumouse...entirely doable I think, though!

[leeperry]

Remote Volume Control with Wireless Mouse (http://www.instructables.com/id/Remote-Volume-Control-with-Wireless-Mouse/)

[VPhile jr.]

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll give it a try later on, also had this feeling, some sort of macro/autohotkey volumouse combo might help. In terms of audio-video phile gadgetery, you might be interested in this one too.

--
http://www.embedds.com/wp-content/uploads/2007i/0712/USB_LCD_PIC.jpg

These USB LCD controllers show id3 tag/fq. bar/.. for your audio source, there are many approaches to this idea, from cheap alfanumeric LCD to fancy-gfx displays. Alfanumeric VFD/PLED/OLED displays are nice compromise.
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showpost.php?p=2169540&postcount=659

I've got the printer com port ~10yrs older version of it, now it's time to upgrade to USB hah..
http://www.embedds.com/usb-lcd-controller/
http://www.coderforlife.com/projects/lcd/

or different project:
http://www.harbaum.org/till/lcd2usb/index.shtml
surface mounted: http://diy.elektroda.eu/miniaturowy-sterownik-wyswietlacza-lcd2usb/

[leeperry]

nice! but I mostly use a regular midtower PC as HTPC, I don't really have a use for LCD screens at the moment.

Reclock works like a charm now w/ both audio and video, my imagination is the only limit on the griffin(need to find new macros to make! this would be killer in Wavelab and Cubase to control VST instruments and so :D), and I've rolled opamps like hell on my soundcard...I think I'm quite happy w/ my current set up atm tbh :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

It might come handy in those laid back sessions w. headphones & sofa.. 8)

[leeperry]

I have to admit that I'm becoming so hooked to the griffin...I can skip and control volume w/ my eyes closed, no more enslavement to the computer :clap:
I now need to find a USB wireless solution, I want a wireless griffin now http://www.head-fi.org/forums/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif

[VPhile jr.]

There might be some: usb> wireless <usb
bridging thingy but that would be likely pricey stuff, so look elsewhere
(any remapped wireless mouse or trackball wireless keyboard can do), or wait for that Griffin PM wireless edition of 2015. ;)

[leeperry]

I need to find the keyboard codes for the standard windows previous/next, that'd be really neat!

EDIT: http://api.farmanager.com/en/winapi/virtualkeycodes.html :)

[VPhile jr.]

Griffin PowerMate used as volume knob in "out there" kind of htpc project (author is of the htpc humidor fame):
http://forums.bit-tech.net/showpost.php?p=2003053&postcount=13
another one: http://forums.bit-tech.net/showpost.php?p=1549287&postcount=75

[leeperry]

wow! DIY can go such a long way sometimes 8)

and it's endless, so nice...ended pots are so darn annoying, and stepped ones are just a major deal breaker to me...the worst being stepped+ended, simply unbearable.

[VPhile jr.]

Review and more info about DACs from [JAVS/ESI/Audiotrak/Infrasonic] brands based on similar hw:
http://doctorhead.ru/articles/audiotrak_dr_dac_prime
http://www.samick.jp/dtm/infrasonic.php

[leeperry]

nice! you can get a decent translation from http://www.online-translator.com/srvurl.asp?lang=en

hehe, a big failure from our ESI friends once more :D

low quality opamps, low RMAA results, low quality $2.25 TPA6120A2 headphones amp(it sounds edgy and agressive)...someone compared it to the newer Gyrocom version on headfi, there was no contest to him.

Gyrocom seems to care a lot more about SQ than ESI ever did :agree:

[owlsroost]

wow! DIY can go such a long way sometimes 8)

and it's endless, so nice...ended pots are so darn annoying, and stepped ones are just a major deal breaker to me...the worst being stepped+ended, simply unbearable.

Ah, but does it go to 11 ? :) ;)

Tony

[VPhile jr.]

nice! you can get a decent translation from http://www.online-translator.com/srvurl.asp?lang=en

hehe, a big failure from our ESI friends once more :D
low quality opamps, low RMAA results, low quality $2.25 TPA6120A2 headphones amp(it sounds edgy and agressive)...someone compared it to the newer Gyrocom version on headfi, there was no contest to him.
Gyrocom seems to care a lot more about SQ than ESI ever did :agree:

My impression from the brochures/pcb pictures is that in terms of SQ/parts used these "same" DACs score from top to bottom as follows (I'm talking about the higher end models DAC1,2,Transpport not the early precursor UHF-1):

JAVS->Audiotrak/Gyrocom->ESI.

Where is that version for Japanese market under the brand Infrasonic going to fit I don't know,
not much info on them yet beside the link provided before, they could be moribund by now as well, since JAVS pops up in some japanese eshops, perhaps a grey import, and Audiotrak has got strong presence in Japan anyway..

My top candidates are JAVS from Korea or Gyrocom/eshop, btw. how does this "free shipping" offered over their ebay store actually work? Is it real at all, for instance if you change for testing purposes delivery from EU to subsaharan Africa and back it's still the same, seems quite extraordinary..

--
Low-end DAC shootout inside the same family: JAVS UHF-1 v. Audiotrak Cube =>
http://www.decacom.co.kr/shop/shopdetail.html?brandcode=009002000001
v.
http://audiotrak.co.kr/kr/product/Ecube.php
http://audiotrack.net/products/PDCUBE/spec/
http://www.audiotrak.jp/product/prodigycube/featspec/
--

JAVS is the *earlier version of this DAC sold from late 2008, the major plus is the ext. power source,
which is missing on the new revision aka Cube. However, the Line-In moved to the front panel on Cube is a good idea.
Cube is using socketed OPA2134PA as preamp for the head output as opposed to TPA6120A2 in UHF-1 which is hard soldered. UHF-1 claims capability driving headphones upto 600ohm (USB powered Cube 150ohm), which is quite believable given also the ext. power supply. So, it is a very mixed bag, the Cube is a bit more expensive (EUR ~90), but should deliver a better SQ and it's opamp upgradable..

-
* just found japanese review of Cube dated Q4/2008, the plot thickens, so it was either very fast revision for Audiotrak or the Korean factory has been running two separate versions from the start..

[leeperry]

the Cube is a toy(being cheap and USB powered), don't expect miracles from it...still nice for a laptop if you wanna use it on the road, but proper USB sound devices do need a wall wart to feed the opamps and so on.

Infrasonic was bought by Auzen AFAIK.

yes, Gyrocom is a no brainer, has a very responsive techsupport and make very nice sounding products IMHO...they won several awards in Korea for their audio products(including the Prodigy HD2 Advance Deluxe that I'm currently using)
Ah, but does it go to 11 ?
well, that's the beauty of digital volume attenuation...it goes up to 12!

[leeperry]

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&source=hp&q=jog/shuttle&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=11238584978115511117&ei=8iVgS6aiDZCTjAfDv6jHDA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBMQ8wIwAg&os=reviews#

it looks nice too, but I couldn't find it for a decent price.

I love how some of the reviews say that the bad comments were left by shills selling the same kind of products...that's something I've really grown tired of on head-fi..

[VPhile jr.]

Well, define the term "*toy", I think it's obvious that Cube is currently the king of DACs bellow EUR 100. Is it a toy category though? Probably, but the real table top DACs/Headphone preamps with transformator like Blake Cube Linear go for $2k anyway, no thanks..

So, the compromise for home audiophile in the usb/external domain w. ext. powersupply should be the ~$300 DACs from JAVs/Audiotrak (Dr.DAC2). I just doubt it will make a tangible difference in my setup: besides audio, playing DVDs and dvb-t/sat combo on several notebooks, htpc based on Atom 330, all that jazz usually via headphones by Senny PX100 & HD555 mod to 595.

-
* 've seen one crazy japanese diy guy, who is using Cube in his car audio chain (alongside htpc and poweramp), hah

[VPhile jr.]

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&source=hp&q=jog/shuttle&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=11238584978115511117&ei=8iVgS6aiDZCTjAfDv6jHDA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBMQ8wIwAg&os=reviews#

it looks nice too, but I couldn't find it for a decent price.


Because Logitech dropped the ball on this one, it's no longer in production..

[leeperry]

mostly coz it feeds 5V to the opamps? a friend of mine tried a burson and all he got was a telephone-like sound.

and he said that it clearly couldn't drive his K702....Currawong concurred(and his Cube died after a few weeks): http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/audiotrak-prodigy-cube-has-anyone-heard-413748/index2.html#post5632201

no wall wart, no dice IMHO

[leeperry]

Because Logitech dropped the ball on this one, it's no longer in production..
it's $25 refurbed on geeks.com, I dunno how well the drivers work...Logitech can be a major hit or miss

[VPhile jr.]

mostly coz it feeds 5V to the opamps? a friend of mine tried a burson and all he got was a telephone-like sound.

and he said that it clearly couldn't drive his K702....Currawong concurred(and his Cube died after a few weeks): http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/audiotrak-prodigy-cube-has-anyone-heard-413748/index2.html#post5632201 no wall wart, no dice IMHO

Yep, partly agree, and that's why I was so in favour of the JAVS UHF-1 version, which is cheaper, has got the ext. power supply and claim of 600ohms (150-300ohm should run safely), but it may likely and comparatively suck on the SQ front these times.

As mentioned before, I hate to be pushed upwards in the Dr. DAC2 category (~E300), I don't need the upsampler,
only that nice 24/192, digital input and ext. power source, grr..

[leeperry]

this one looks good indeed: http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-AUDIOTRAK-DR-DAC2-DX-Digital-to-Analog-Converter_W0QQitemZ110482339767

good components, swappable op-amps, 24/96 over USB..250 EUR shipped, hard to complain

otherwise there's the Onkyo Wavio USB cards, they use their VLSC oversampling algorithnm and sound rather nice apparently

[VPhile jr.]

I've been looking at this puppy for quite some time, Matrix mini-i. It borrows some design features from Belcanto and has got several audio inputs (so perhaps more suitable as non PC setup with my old trusty NAD370, DVD transport-lampized spdif-out cheapo Pioneer, dvb-t/sat combo), no rolling option for opamps though.

I know it's a BIG RISK to go with a noname asian company, but given the pcb layout it seems like quality Korean designed product, likely outsourced to Chinese manuf. Hell, I went back then with noname Korean brand for my first quality portable mp3/ogg player almost 10yrs ago, it was a big risk then, and it crushed the silly stupid no sound & no usb mass storage Ipods of the day in my friendly circles in one bold stroke..

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/matrix-mini-i-balanced-dac-hp-amp-441960
http://www.audiophilechina.com/cp-show.asp?C_id=187&S_id2=57&s_id=

edit:
Hm, according to one review linked inside links above, the input via usb goes only 24bit/44kHz, otherwise the 3x other digital inputs go 96kHz, so for PC playback you need additional soundcard at least ala Musiland Monitor to feed the Matrix mini-i. This sounds rather odd and as hw not sw limitation. Not a problem for nonPC based standalone application as mentioned in the begining though..

[leeperry]

ouh that's some big filtering caps :D

but I really don't like having solid caps in the audio path...and putting some non-swappable 2134 is quite a disgrace IMO.

hehe, I'm having such a blast on this CD: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gravity-Broken-Keys/dp/B000EURI1K

it's a mix of James Brown and The Doors w/ a highly addictive dark hard funk spin :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

Interestingly enough, the diy community is always catching up on the big guys, the following platforms/projects deliver relativelly near the same functionality in the kit as the most expensive preamp/DACs (such as PS Audio's PerfectWave DAC or some of the five figure priced gear) out there..

http://twistedpearaudio.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=963 DACs, acc. like spdif muxers, volume, internal/ext. I2s, Musiland USB Sound, ..
http://twistedpearaudio.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4861#4861 + driving SACDs via I2s Denon DVD-1920/DSD signal mod
http://twistedpearaudio.com (they have got kits based on latest 32bit chips in the pipeline)
http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/ (diy clone of PS Audio PerfectWave DAC via Arduino) some features missing as of now but it rocks!
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-01-mini-458352/ http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/155622-musiland-01us-usb-dac-i2s-into-sabre.html
http://cracktous.blogspot.com/ (first Buffalo/Twistedpear Arduino based DAC with spdif muxer, LCD, remote, etc..)
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/description/perfectwave-dac?cat=audio (terminology/technology overview)

ackoDAC - Sabre32/ESS (same chip as in Buffalo32 DAC kit) based project in progress:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/147817-ackodac-based-es9018.html

--
!!!Oh my god, how could I overlooked it before, this "hifiduino" concept by LinuxWorks done in much standartized/replicable way for diyers, based on AMB Gamma2 (y2) DAC and LCDuino-1 kits feature:

+ front panel/fascia alfanumeric LCD
+ digital volume control (could be used as head preamp)
+ SPDIFmaster (5x in/out port -> spdif coax/opto switch)
+ IR/LCD remote controller for the switch (paired with generic Sony CD/DVD remote or other thanks to autolearn)
+ upsampling filtres on IC (ASRC) - selection via pcb switch or sw/lcduino
+ wireless X10 'firecracker' for power (AC) on/off/sleeptimer mgmt
+ much more..
- unbalanced audio output / could be solved by similar arduino project for Buffalo32/Opus platform (but bigger footprint/price)
- as with standard Gamma y1/y2, Buffalo32/Opus or other DACs such as Matrix mini-i
the onboard usb input (y1miniboard) is limited to 44.1khz throughput, but as mentioned before that could be overcommed
easily by selecting better ext. usb (perhaps also int. in the future) input via Spdif/coax from the latest Musiland Monitor 01 USD (24/192) USB soundcards (these chinese guys are crazy dedicated, improved firmware every month), or the new italian Mtech Hiface etc. Actually, it doesn't have to be to the detriment of SQ out of DAC, because some tests suggest, that USB->SPDIF soundcards used as bare transport result in much better SQ/jitter in comparison to direct onboard DAC usb connectivity route:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/usb-spdif-converters-shoot-out-emu-0404-usb-vs-musiland-monitor-01-usd-vs-teralink-x-vs-m2tech-hiface-449885/

~~~ AMB Gamma2 (y2) + micro/duino options:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/post-pics-your-builds-85561/index415.html#post6295441
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/gamma-2-2-dac-thread-430793/index81.html#post6295447
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/lcduino-1-i-o-processor-447607/
http://www.netstuff.org/audio/
~~~

--
Suggested mods to Musiland 01: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diy-hifi-supply/154446-music-server-computer-transport-hop.html

--
So, I guess the DAC summary follows as:
1. For the best quality, get I2S transport/source and I2S input capable DAC, PWD by PS audio (~$3k) or DAC2 JAVS or Matrix Mini-i (<$400) or diy project by Twistedpear Buffalo32/II or Opus and/or Hifiduino or AMB Gamma2 + LinuxWork micro/arduino options
2. Quality but on very tight budget + in need of ext. PC setup, get Musiland 01 USB->Spdif (or AMB Gamma 1) card bellow $100 or Audiotrak Cube (mod to ext. power source)

[leeperry]

oh yes, DIY is the way...if you have what it takes! Scott Wurcer(a very famous opamp AD engineer, he designed the marvelous AD797 w/ his bare hands) said that DIY'ing a burson would only cost a couple of bucks :eek:

I'd have to admit that this opamp rolling fever of mine has forced me to improve my soldering skills a great deal(those SOIC8>DIP8 adapters are pretty damn pesky), I would also like to start an easy first DIY pj :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

I'd have to admit that this opamp rolling fever of mine has forced me to improve my soldering skills a great deal(those SOIC8>DIP8 adapters are pretty damn pesky), I would also like to start an easy first DIY pj :agree:

In that case, I'd recommend you for starters, that very affordable LM3886 Amplifier Kit by BrianGT
http://www.chipamp.com/

project gallery/easy assembly:
http://www.briangt.com/gallery/nigc
http://www.briangt.com/gallery/lm3886amp

And if you fancy more audio quality-fidelity wait few days for restocking of much improved kit which stemms from similar background:
http://twistedpearaudio.com/amplifiers/sympatico.aspx

[leeperry]

ah, very nice! I'll look into it :agree:

anyway, I'm sold on the AD797B opamp, I'm gonna hoard dozens of it and hopefully make something nice out of them someday 8)

[leeperry]

a friend of mine is having a ball on his DIY y2: http://www.amb.org/audio/gamma2/

he's DIY a headamp now I think

[VPhile jr.]

As you may notice, I've expanded the DAC overview section in the #293 post above, and the AMB Gamma2 (y2)
+ micro/arduino driven option boards ala LinuxWorks for LCD/Input ch. selection via remote/Preamp-volume/..

=>

the best DAC solution (price/audio quality/features/diy skill factor) in the given segment (<<$1k). So, the only important features currently missing from the reference high end gear like that gorgeous PS Audio's PWD is direct LAN connectivity/access to network storage, LCD remote handheld gizmos showing the track details/album, and already mentioned missing balanced audio outup of the Gammas (but balanced ver. could be done with TP-Buffalo32 platform). And the lack of these specs is certainly not that important anyway, they will come one day..

[leeperry]

humm the y2 doesn't look too DIY to me..some of the parts can't be soldered by hand IMHO.

discrete designs have the major advantage of being easy to build, resistors/transistors and you're good to go :D

[VPhile jr.]

You can always hire someone around AMB to solder these tiny smd parts (ICs) for a reasonable fee for you. After that there will be still 80% of diy work for this DAC project still left to you: populating the rest of the boards with discrete parts, cabling/connectors, casing, debugging, ..
:disagree:

[leeperry]

ah well, stick some AD797B on whatever semi-pro soundcard, and call it a day ;)

AK4396/AD797B is the magic combo for me :agree:

of course Jesse always wants more more more, that's just how he is: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/my-ultimate-diy-stereo-soundcard-468808/#post6347111

and the LT1028A was stunning as final buffer behind the AD797B but it was also oscillating like hell(doing all that stuff w/o an oscilloscope is utter carelessness anyway :rolleyes:), majkel has told me that soldering some resistors could make it play nice: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/opamp-thread-432749/index138.html#post6354735

so DIY is starting to entrap me :D

I've seen some cheap USB oscilloscopes on ebay, it might be worth looking into...as oscillating opamps are very evil.

for the time being, I'll use one of these to hot-deplug my beloved SONY cd3k when not in use, as I really don't trust my DIY skills in the first place: http://www.plantronics.com/north_america/en_US/products/cat640035/cat3600586/prod3090125

[VPhile jr.]

Just another report from the Crazy Vintage Rig Labs, Inc.
Tested another vintage ThinkPad laptop (Crystal SoundFusion WDM) with latest ASIO4ALL v2.10Beta1 + last? otachan winamp plugin (ver0.67). ASIO4ALL set to full 2048 samples buffer size, 0 latency compensation, hw buffer uncheck, kernel buffer 4, checked always resample for 48kHz sources, unchecked force WDM driver 16bit. In Winamp general preferencies/playback disabled dithering, surround sound, equalizer etc., stock setting in otachan plugin remains (upsampling unchecked, gapless checked). Volumouse used for detailed master %volume setting. Driving directly the usual headphone gear of mine (Senny PX100, HD555-595mod). I think it's the best one can get from this stock/onboard hardware as it stands..

=> very good results for that old machine, very clear sound and stereo separation, no hiss or click&clack (even with 1411kbps sources) in comparison to Dsound in Reclock/MPC, it's a pitty that combo doesn't support Kernel for this onboard sound as well, that would likely blow the winamp/asio4all combo away, especially for lossy sources/upsampling. For some reason, relatively high CPU load 15-40%(peaks), most likely because of the very old otachan plugin (no longer maintained since 2006?) and obviously that winamp bloatware jumping around.

[leeperry]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/asus-xonar_9.html
the version 0.9 ASIO playback plugin for Foobar works inaccurately which can be easily demonstrated with measurements.
nothing works in this damn player :D

[leeperry]

this one looks good too! http://cgi.ebay.com/HLLY-HIGH-END-DMK-IV-DAC-USB-Headphone-AMP-Pre-AMP_W0QQitemZ400092962191

I've asked the manufacturer for a quote w/ AD797BR instead of AR :agree:

this looks nice too: http://cgi.ebay.com/Maverick-Audio-Headphone-Amplifier-DAC-Tube-PreAmp_W0QQitemZ330394317468

they both do 24/96 over USB...and the 797B+1028A combo on the HD2 was really eye popping, I think the best you can expect from solid state is to sound like tube...so, why not saving some time :D

EDIT: they'll do it for 10 bucks :eek:

[leeperry]

ok, I'm pulling the trigger on this one w/ four AD797BR(yay!) as preamp: http://hllyaudio.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_17&products_id=180

the headphones amp is a pirate copy of a Lehmann design($700 amps)...w/ a bit-perfect S/PDIF soundcard(up to 24/96), this is gonna smoke http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/cowboy.gif

[VPhile jr.]

the headphones amp is a pirate copy of a Lehmann design

Judging by the pcb layout?
Not that much reviews on that HLLY model available though..
(apart from usual headfi.org and the brand is not spectacular qualitywise anyway).
And the official specs are quite short, does it feature balanced audio output?

aha from headfi:

USB receiver: PCM2704, SPDIF receiver: DIR9001, DAC: CS4396, output: AD797
w/o balanced out and no dual mono dac

[leeperry]

the manufacturer says it everywhere, there's no copyright laws in China ;)

yep, I will use it over S/PDIF w/ some bit-perfect drivers.

I only need an headamp tbh(it does have RCA out), and I crave for the AD797B SS..so w/ a nice DAC(CS4396 is apparently pretty good) and Lehman HP amp design..it looks killer.

and Skylab's review sample had OPA2134 in it...ah, not good! AD797B is night and day w/ the 2134

[VPhile jr.]

Looking forward to your in depth review, I've seen the price fluctuating around ~300 bucks, some ebay auctions went eventually a bit lower than that. I think it might be a good contender with Matrix mini-i, for somebody who is in the market for *chinese DAC of similar specs.

Btw. in terms of your review pls. double check that the input via onboard usb soundcard is really above 24bit/44kHz, as this seems to be the limitation of many of the other DACs in this sector, (which drive other/non usb inputs at full 96kHz with no prob). We discussed this previously..

--
*what I hate about these chinese startups is they are usually blackbox stuff, i.e. propietary-closed software/firmware, also the company can go under any day. That's why I'd rather recommend those various hifi duino based diy kits. Because these are much more open, servicable, customizable, upgradable. Btw. at least as it appears from his 2010 schedule, Dr. Lampizator will offer his first commercial product and it will be based among other things (Squeezbox frontend) on the previously mentioned Buffalo32 (ESS chip) DAC kit ala made by TwistedPear, so we were on the right track..

[leeperry]

it's 16/48 max over USB, and prolly 24/96 over S/PDIF(still asking for confirmation, but these are the specs of the receiver chips anyway).

yes, what annoys me is that they are a new cloning company...and god knows about 1)reliability 2)warranty

OTOH, I *want* my audio to go through AD797B opamps :rock:

ah well, I think I want a perfect product that doesn't exist...I'm sick and tired of all this tbh! the Prodigy HD2 Advance DE was nice, but it's the only soundcard I have ever tried that would make loud audible "pops" when someone turns off the bathroom neon light switch...granted its ballast could be noisy, but even a $10 CMI8738 soundcard doesn't do it(ixbtlabs.com said that the HD2 ground layout is foobar'ed)! anyway, I've sold the HD2 now...I never seem to be able to keep the same audio gear for more than a few months, it gets odd.

also, my cd3k is damn easy to drive..it hardly needs any amplification(unlike an HD650), all it wants is an opamp w/ a good current load and we're in business.

I kinda like the jog/shuttle stepless pot on the HLLY, and the remote...nice touch! they've got it all right basically, I'm still tempted..I could sell it w/o losing money if I don't like it, that's the whole point of negotiating a low price :p

[leeperry]

Dr. Lampizator will offer his first commercial product
the guys on diyaudio.com were making mad fun of his modding skills, and his ugly soldering...this forum is fantastic because there's a lot of highly skilled professional audio designers, they know their ****

[VPhile jr.]

Well, it's not always sun&roses overthere either, diyaudio/headfi and similar forums, are full of xyz pages long threads jumping on bandwagon of asian imported low end audio gear, usually concluding these debates => it's junk over again. I certainly don't take Lampizator's word as revelation of god, but most of the time he is right about the basic stuff, which matters, and that's SQ/price ratio and piercing the veil of PR manure from both OEM and start-up audio companies.

[leeperry]

the whole op-amp design is biased and should be avoided like the plague, the lampizator guy is 100% right...many ppl on diyaudio also said that, and the more it goes the more I understand why! but I think that high end single op-amps when properly implemented(no blind rolling please!) can sound very good.

the worst is dual op-amps, except for the latest models(like OPA1612, its datasheet clearly states that each channel has its own independent piece of waffer), they just KILL the center channel width...I will never buy stuff using dual op-amps EVER again.

yes, tubes look like the answer to op-ampitis....but they get hot as hell and need to be changed every once in a while? and THD is terrible.

I sound like a fanboy'ish broken record, but top opamps like LT1028A and AD797B have killed the tubes and burson's for good...majkel doesn't have wooden ears and rated them at the best op-amps money can buy: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-OPA-earth-OPA-moon-OPA-sun-v-2-a-397691/

they can't be blindly rolled, though...as neither of them is unity gain stable.

[noee]

Curious if anyone is using the MPC MatroskaSplitter.ax explicitly (meaning, installed and registered outside of MPC-HC internal) with Reclock?

I was creating an EDID override for my AVR (Onkyo 905) and LG HDTV combo when I also switched to the MPC splitter. All of a sudden, Reclock was showing perfect refresh rates for my HDTV, 60.000 and 24.000, right on the nose. With Haali's splitter, it was always 60.002 and 24.001.

So I thought maybe it was the HDMI connection thru the AVR, etc. I then connected the LG directly and went back to the Generic PNP Driver and it exhibited the same behavior (dead on refresh detection). Then, I unregistered the MPC splitter and installed the latest Haali again and it's back to the 24.001 and 60.002.

What does this mean, if anything? Fwiw, I cleared the Reclock timings between every splitter switch and after applying the INF drivers.

[leeperry]

very strange! but all my random stuttering issues have disappeared once I've ditched all Haali's code, and started using the KMP built-in MKV splitter(which is prolly hacked over Gabest's anyway :D)

BTW, I've given up on my HLLY amp...they've put a nasty OPA2604 in the headphones amp, there seems to be some topology errors(wrong resistors values), 16/48 max over USB kinda sucks and well I'm not gonna throw $240 on a no-name device w/o a clear warranty policy(and it weights +4KG so RMA won't come cheap).

this one looks seriously money OTOH: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260437930872

proprietary 24/192 USB drivers over KS, awesome SQ from what everyone says...tbh I'm not looking for swappable opamps anymore, I'm sick and tired of blind rolling :disagree:

[leeperry]

humm, it needs 3 second to switch sample rate? http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6353044-post402.html

hah, fail! I love how there's always something terribly wrong in all those headamps :bang:

[VPhile jr.]

BTW, I've given up on my HLLY amp...

I'm glad you changed your ways on that one..
This wasn't particularly interesting piece of hardware to start with anyway.

I think you are too harsh on the Musiland brand, I don't see that delay during sample rate selection as much of a problem. But as mentioned previously the king of usb -> spdif soundcards in terms of SQ is that new italian M2tech (~100E). But I'd rather wait a moment for someone to have complete solution, i.e. including I2S transport output, instead or in addition to spdif only. On that front is the most promising already mentioned AMB + LinuxWorks kit..

-
Btw. if you are looking into serious high end/SQ preamp for headphones, you will have to go different/traditional route, which is descrete kind of solution. One of the most acclaimed kits is called DispreII by Mr. Macura, and now you could also buy it from the designer as assembled&tested boards (main and power board modules) ~300E (half for the kit only), plus ~100E for the italian/modushop case and some bits and pieces. There is also the full option, i.e. completed preamp (incl. case) for ~500E..

example of one diy approach:
http://exige.wz.cz/tomas/disprekoc1small.jpg
http://avforum.zive.cz/viewtopic.php?p=6959211&sid=cff5bbbaeb38858f291ec255144357c6#p6959211

http://web.telecom.cz/macura/audiopage.html
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/dispre2_en.htm
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/dispre2_final_cz.htm
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/dispre2_cenik.htm

Recently also complementary project to Dispre appeared, which adds input switiching/remote capability, roughly (kit 150E):
http://forum.audioweb.cz/viewtopic.php?id=9572

This is all based on hiqh quality components were it matters, usually not to be found in <1000E audio equipment made by OEMs.

-

So, the conclusion is just go with the best/decent asian $300 headphone preamp with all the additional digital options (ala Matrix Mini-i/JAVs) and don't ask any questions about reliability, longevity, ultimate SQ. Or go in different direction with descrete based diy project/or hire someone to finish the kit for you, you will get the best SQ possible, but with limited extra features..

There is no reason to widly experiment with purchasing the HLLYs of the world..

[leeperry]

well, I'm clearly not willing to wait 3 secs to go 44.1>48, hah what a joke! they put a DSP From the 60's in there? any serious soundcard can switch sample rate in the blink of an eye...and the 02US only has a 12MHz clock, so they prolly use some nasty SRC to do 44.1

the matrix/JAVS prolly include nasty dual op-amps like 2134/2604, and I'm not interested in rolling op-amps anymore...as the most interesting ones(797/1028 ) are very unstable and cannot be "rolled", they need a proper surrounding design to begin w/

ah well, the HLLY almost had it all perfect! and I don't wanna resort to DIY.

maybe the new Bravura soundcard would be an option, discrete headphones amp, rather cheap, rollable op-amp(so I could ask a shop near my place to get it stable w/ the 797 and/or 1028 ), bit-perfect drivers over KS/ASIO apparently and it's PCI-E, which would be great and would allow me to reinstall my big silent VGA cooler.

I have to admit that the GPL CMI8738/68 drivers are really killer, but the jitter is prolly terrible on these chips...and I can't seem to be able to find a worthy S/PDIF amp anyway :D

maybe this one? http://www.tcelectronic.com/bmc-2.asp

but it's prolly using crappy op-amps..

[VPhile jr.]

I've got the impression from following your train of thought that your are just pushing yourself into the corner.
For instance, the crazy idea that you can drive larger headphones (>50ohm) from PCI-e card only is not realistic at all..
For the last 1-5% of ohso SQ greatness you definately need a standalone preamp, and going from there are only two basic choices:

1/ ready made compromise ala Matrix mini-i/JAVs/... / Hlly /
2/ diy-kit ala DispreII/AMB M3/.. or other

Obviously, I'd also welcome all in one solution (incl. quality soundcard). Simply a package which is both top SQ and affordable, plus extra feature rich (inputs, remote, lcd, I2S), but realistically there is none, we are chasing too many goals here.

The PS Audio (PerfectWave DAC) guys are very close in terms of achieving the goal of ultimative single package, but that's $3-6k. And in terms of SQ I doubt their sound based on "old Wolf" chip will be better than diy BuffaloII with latest ESS chip, so why bother.

It's all about priorities, and at certain junction the buck stops there, I'd rather have the best possible SQ over features,
but that's me and now, and it may not suit everybody or even myself later on, hah.

[leeperry]

my cd3k is 32Ω/104dB, very easy to drive! hell, it even sounds damn fine straight outta the CMI8738 chip(that has a built-in 32Ω HP driver)...the sound is just kinda lofi but it works really well!

a friend of mine w/ a high end grado told me that his X-Fi Forte 7.1 was killing his previous heavily modded ZeroDAC on each and every level..it's got the same discrete HP amp as the Bravura.

indeed, I'm most likely expecting $3-6K quality for $300...not gunna happen! :D

another friend of mine on head-fi keeps pushing the "nuforce udac", it's 16/48 max but that's fine...now I just wanna see the inside, and I might bite...I have to make compromises, and I'm entirely willing to :agree:

[leeperry]

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6242666-post170.htmlhttp://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/noxauror.gif

[VPhile jr.]

I think we will get there somewhat, someday via HTPC and ReClock like family of software. For instance, there are forum documented mods in progress for currently the best jitter/SQ usb-spdif card out there (M2tech), which add ext. power source and more importantely I2S capability. But this thing sized as tiny usb stick is hell to diy-work on, hopefully, the manuf. will introduce the changes in later model re-visions/versions, but they had to know in the first place, that people are interested in it at all, and what the price ceiling for it might be (<<150E)..

http://www.m2tech.biz/products.html
http://www.m2tech.biz/contacts.html

-
Btw. thanks for the Nuforce tip, I'll research it further, hm looks as good headamp tiny application for small phones, but as soundcard or for big headphones it's limited. I thought we are more into discussing the full preamp/DAC_usb combos as this new Nuforce product Icon (~$450), Nuforce HDP 24/96 USB-Optical 24/192 Coax DAC Preamp and Headphone Amp:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f7/review-pending-nuforce-hdp-24-96-usb-optical-24-192-coax-dac-preamp-headphone-amp-469767/#post6362513
http://www.nuforce.com/hp/products/iconhdp/

[leeperry]

that's the ESS product sheet: http://www.esstech.com/PDF/ES9022_PF_090731.pdf

yes the m2tech looks nice indeed, but I'm not even sure that my brain likes uber-low jitter...always have had bad experiences w/ those, guess I'm just an old school kinda guy :D

[leeperry]

hehe, it's a $0.98 24/192 cheap IC apparently: http://www.esstech.com/pressPDF/ES9022_PR_090803.pdf

why didn't they put a 24/96 capable USB chip in their uDAC? and I don't want a hardware volume knob anyway, the search continues :D

[VPhile jr.]

I told you so, we will always come full circle and return here :)

1/ ready made compromise ala Matrix mini-i/JAVs/... / Hlly /

or

2/ diy-kit ala DispreII/AMB M3/BuffaloII.. other similar
+options: Musiland/M2tech/.. other similar for soundcard/->PC transport capability

[leeperry]

well if compromises means an OPA2604 based HP amp like the HLLY, then there's no way..hah :D

apparently the m2tech hiface is also using the ES9022, but it kinda bugs me knowing that the $0.98 DSP is 24/192 capable...but that this nuforce company chose to only put a 16/48 USB chip to avoid killing competition w/ their more expensive models.

I still think that the Bravura is a possible option, the HP amp is said to sound amazing...very good sounding discrete design apparently!

[leeperry]

but tbh, these drivers are just perfect: http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers/

finally something that meets my expectations :eek:

drivers are always the Achilles heel of all those crappy PC audio solutions...I want to plug something to a CMI8768 in optical S/PDIF, as regular USB is a jitter feast anyway and at least I know that these drivers won't let me down..they do automatically bitmatched 16/44.1 48 88.2 96kHz KS/DS, goodness gracious!

no 24bit, but quite frankly I hardly ever listen >50dB anyway...and optical is a great way to overcome any groundloop hum issue, I like the sound of that :agree:

PS: humm, this thing is dirt cheap on thomann.de: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul08/articles/esiduafire.htm

PPS: the musiland are nice but they all carry a fixed sample rate...how retarded.

[VPhile jr.]

Just to follow up on the note of discrete preamps, from the AMB family, a classic jaw dropper, β22 & σ22 combo in special edition:

http://www.amb.org/audio/beta22/gallery_gb.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f113/krmathis-22-22-group-build-edition-384619/

[leeperry]

hehe yes, krmarthis, the biggest free poster on headfi ^^

well, I know what I want...something that has an optical S/PDIF input so I can use the GPL CMI8768 bit-matched drivers....now to find what is another story altogether :D

the built-in DAC/HP amp of this chip ain't so bad tbh(a far cry from Realtek!), if I have to lower my standards...this might just be the biggest bang for bucks ever.

this card also has a 8768 and swappable opamps, so I could put a bunch of AD797 on it: http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-raider.php

they should be compatible as auzen sells them as spare parts(it's not the B grade, but still): http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/opamp_ad797ar.php

killer drivers/killer op-amps, all that for ±$100 8)

and the 8768 has an anti-pop mechanism for headphones at power on/off, and pretty good SNR specs.

[VPhile jr.]

grr.. accidently erased my own post..
it was along the lines whether is that onboard 2wire thingy going to work with ATI HD5xxx (for audio output via HDMI)
w. out problems (jitter, sync issues, etc.)?

[leeperry]

the drivers were not updated, coz they simply work! I know, that's amazing :D

I've spoken to its coder, and he said that he might add a software global mute at some point, that'd be pretty sweet...but no other changes seem to be required.

yes, I got the CMI8768 datasheet...it's a pretty solid chip, you can easily compare it to the $0.98 DAC in the uDAC...they sell the uDAC for 115 EUR on their european site, yet its DAC costs $0.98...I smell a HUUUUUGE markup here! w/ many colaborating shills on head-fi, as usual...this site is just a gigantic market place.

well there's lotsa Auzen cards you can find for cheap second hand that run 8768/8770...I'm currently trying to negotiate an X-Plosion 7.1.

and this guy sells AD797B ready to roll for very cheap: http://cgi.ebay.com/Dual-to-Mono-Op-amp-module-4558-NE5532-TL072-to-AD797BR_W0QQitemZ360231530034

yep, they mention something about outputting to HDMI on the auzen site: http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-raider.php

I know what DSP/op-amps and drivers I want, now just need to find the right board :D

[leeperry]

ok, awesomeness...all their boards are compatible w/ AD797: http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/opamp_intro.php

I was leaning towards their latest cards, but hah: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/auzentech-x-fi-bravura-7-1-sneak-peak-445735/index4.html#post6371341

Creative crapware! even the VIA drivers fail a bit, the only solid genuine drivers are from RME/Lynx IMO...AudioTrak is nice, but plain buggy and their tech.support is AWOL.

[VPhile jr.]

CMI8768 intro: http://www.cmedia.com.tw/ProductsDetail.aspx?C1Serno=25&C2Serno=28&C3Serno=0&PSerno=33
Do I read the chip specs correctly, they indeed support 1x optical spdif in + 1x coax spdif in but the X-raider
is apparently equipped only with 1x optical input, right?
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-raider.php

Well, in terms of older/cheapo Auzen cards, that X-raider is *brand new and the price will fall, the ~60E is only introductory, so hopefully the whole package including 2x (4x) top opamps could be purchased at this level down the road..

-
* 'cause just visited a webshop with 2months long price history graph, so that's probably my mistake
-
hell no, "Auzentech introduces new X-Raider 7.1 and X-Studio 5.1 sound cards. PCGHX - 07/10/2009"
and there was quite a delay before they hit the stores..

[leeperry]

I haven't seen any 8738/68/70 board w/ coax S/PDIF, they all had optical only...they all prolly use the same design from the manufacturer...C-Media is known to push a full OEM package(including their unbearable drivers :D)

I wasn't under the impression that the X-raider was so new, anyway it's 50 bucks here in France, and the AD797B from China is 15...so that seems like a pretty sweet set up for dirt cheap 8)

PS: yep, the Auzen X-Raider 7.1 has been phased out in many shops apparently, it's from 2008

PPS: except that the stock drivers stink, owners seem quite happy: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=29-156-012&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=100&SelectedRating=-1&PurchaseMark=&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&Keywords=%28keywords%29

[VPhile jr.]

There is a new development on the Musiland scene, new drivers now allow for user select precision mode for exact frequency to support the different sample rates, also another ex. of I2S mod pictures are out.

Precision mode driver:
http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-are-clocks-generated-in-musiland.html
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-driver-exact-sample-rate-version-468953/

Musiland I2S mod:
http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/02/musiland-01-us-i2s-mod.html

[leeperry]

ouh, nice links...I really wonder wth it is that they do w/ clock generation in the Musiland's :confused:

yes, I read about the 3" wasting high precision mode, but I didn't see any "auto samplerate" button...but I was just confirmed on head-fi that there is one indeed :agree:

3" samplerate switching still sounds like a major nuisance, the SQ'd better me out of this world for me to accept this on a daily basis.

musiland's stuff works in KS on XP, has no crappy analog pot, does 24/192..is rather cheap, and it's not a dirty hack(like putting obsolete Chinese op-amps soldered on dubious quality adapters on a dubious quality soundcard w/ hacked third party drivers, hahaha...quite a stunt :D)

now there's still 4 or 5 different models, and the differences aren't clear at all...LILO JOY/Musiland 01 USD/02 USD/01 Mini

PS: jitter is up the roof on the CMI8768, but I kinda like it...uber low jitter is very agressive on headphones :o

[leeperry]

I guess a regular crystal PLL oscillates like hell....so they use a FPGA chip to synthetize a "PUUUUR-FECT" clock...wow, this must be quite amazing(and very fatiguing on headphones).

prolly well worth the 3" switching time OTOH, until they release the 03USD...that'll do it instantly :p

and on top of this, they use proprietary asynchronous USB drivers..

PS: maybe the perfect clock would open new horizons for the Reclock "slave" mode :eek:

PPS: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=OP275+Musiland+Monitor+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&oq=
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/6/66891.html

[VPhile jr.]

PS: jitter is up the roof on the CMI8768, but I kinda like it...uber low jitter is very agressive on headphones :o

Which CMI based audio card in particular are you talking about, X-Raider, or is that just general observation?
Btw. you will have to include preamp after Musiland into the audio chain anyway, this should deal with the aggressivness.

--

"Conclusion" from audioasyleum about these 3versions (mini/US/USD):
The only compelling reason to get the 01US is because of access to the I2S signals which aren't available on the 01USD. But as *glt has shown, a Mini 01US is an better (& cheaper) option, has I2S as well as SPDIF signals but is perhaps a bit small for modding!


*glt is that guy of hifi duino fame, who got spdif & I2S out of Mini 01US, project based on TwisteadPear Opus DAC/Wolfson WM8741
http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/

But as we discussed before, for ultimate SQ we'd prefer something more robust (low jitter clock master) such as M2tech Hiface usb->spdif over the Musiland offerings http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/153191-m2tech-hiface-usb-spdif-24-192khz-asynch-11.html

There's also a guy, who will perform the mods for your M2Tech Hiface (50E fee):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/153191-m2tech-hiface-usb-spdif-24-192khz-asynch-24.html#post2062619
It's used in AckoDAC as master clock, as this DAC allows to be commaned via external MCLK signal..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/147817-ackodac-based-es9018-11.html

So, as mentioned before we should contact the M2tech company, there is an interest in the product incl. mods,
they should offer it on their own in the first place (and cheaper hah)..

[VPhile jr.]

Going back to the CMI discussion and bit perfect Dogbert's GPL drivers. One of the few remaining cards on the market (bellow 10E) is Sweex SC012, it's possible to add pins and little offboard circuit for both spdif in&out:
http://www.zen98696.zen.co.uk/Projects/Sweex_SC012.html
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sweex-SC012-5-1-Sound-Card/dp/B000WH15EG

But is it really worth it @ 48kHz max (besides the bitperfect-ReClock SQ greatness via GPL drivers)? To revive an old proto-htpc yes, but as candidate for new stuff component?, it might be better to wait it out and go full monty with Azu X-Raider (16bit/96kHz) instead, 'cause it can't last out there sitting on the relatively pricey floor of 60E for much longer. And in case it won't go down, at that elevated price it's better to go with Musiland 01 USB..

--

Btw. color me crazy, I just revived yet another old PC of mine, pentium barebone from the early 2000s,
onboard CMI9739A 6CH (AC97 2.2) with optical out, hence used that native AC97 ASIO project and Winamp (+otachan plugin), hah..
http://members.home.nl/nahutec/AC97ASIO/ac97asio.htm

Additional freak tools:
-DPC Latency Checker http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
-PCI Latency Tool http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=951
-VAC (Virtual Audio Cable) http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.html

[leeperry]

the CMI8788 datasheet talks about 5000ps jitter, and I recently compared the HD2 to the 8738...the stereo imaging is very different!

the 8738 was more "blurry", but wider and less fatiguing over time...which leads me to believe that my brain doesn't like low jitter to begin w/

this guy couldn't stand the Musiland 01US for more than 15 mins: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/6/66891.html

it was exactly the same for me on the Asus ST, my brain just HATED it...and the ST is said to have an uber-low jitter clock, too bad it was sounding very sharp, agressive and extremely fatiguing for my brain to process its dual-mono image on headphones.

I don't really care for S/PDIF, all I want is a proper DAC design....and the 02US is the only one that runs on a standalone PSU(no more evil computer SMPS!!), plus having the DAC stage out of the computer case does sound like a plan!

well, ASIO on an AC97 chip...analog must suck and digital must be a jitter feast.

CMI8738 is 48kHz max indeed, I have an Aureon 5.1 PCI board here..you can get a 8768 that's 96kHz max for so cheap...why bother?

ah "PCI latency tool", I wanted to play around w/ it...but it kept BSOD'ing on my XP SP3 box.

well, the X-Raider is pricey because they want customers to believe that the stock op-amps are great, when they're actually worthless...you can get a generic 8768 board for 10/15 EUR second hand!

the Musiland require you to wait 3" each time you switch SR....I'm not sure whether it's because of a top-of-the-line reclocking from that 12Mhz PLL(apparently the HiFace kills it in the digital domain? yet it runs two simple crystals...on a regular clock conditioner I'd guess, like the Asus ST) or because it's light ahead of the competition! using a digital programmable clock condition could indeed give a dead stable clock.

anyway, most chinese sellers on ebay are on vacation for the new year, and the killer reclocking on the Musiland might indeed allow us to run Reclock in "slave" mode(provided some VBS script headaches).

also, the musiland run OP275 dual op-amps, I hate dual op-amps!!

[VPhile jr.]

CMI8738 is 48kHz max indeed, I have an Aureon 5.1 PCI board here..you can get a 8768 that's 96kHz max for so cheap...why bother?

Because generic cmi8768 8CH cards (w. stock drivers) are quite shitty SQ-wise:
in depth review/test, here kitty: http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/cmi8768.shtml
(as shown in the review at least some of them could beat the onboard ALC850):

edit: because of bogged stock drivers 16bit on CMI8738 could be crippled to 14bit => drop => 80dB SNr
This shouldn't be the case with these new GPL drivers though!

Let's wrap it up (CMI talk), in terms of new cards available (not 2nd hand sourced early 2000s generation) it's a showdown-smackdown between CMI8738 Sweex SC012 (48kHz, but newer chips 96kHz capable via GPL drivers, only via digital output though!) and CMI8768 Sweex SC015 (96kHz). They are listed for 10E/20E, however with the latter it is *not certain as to whether two Spdifs could be hacked out of the board (the familiar pins are there), also the smaller guy comes in low profile.

The only difference I am aware of is that the analog part of the 8768 can handle 88.2kHz / 96kHz streams whereas the analog part of the 8738 is silent at these sample rates. So if you just want to use the digital part, there aren't any known differences.
Dogbert: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49350&view=findpost&p=487128

*edit: the spdif in/out pins are known, tested: http://www.avforums.com/forums/sound-cards-internal-audio-devices/914033-looking-pinout-optical-out-header-sweex-7-1-sound-card.html

/And the fancy opamp equipped CMI 8768 Auzen X-Raider is still overpriced as of now..

==> so everythin is jolly good

[leeperry]

hehe you keep calling me "kitty", is that a british thing of some sort? :D

well, to be perfectly clear...when I boot a CMI8738 board, it's noisy as hell! and as soon as the GPL drivers kick in, it's dead silent.

plus the windows master volume is hardware accelerated, and I never go past 15%...it's indeed noisy as hell at 100%, so when I'm saying that these board are great on highly sensitive headphones and/or S/PDIF, it would most likely not be the case for the plain line-out ;)

[leeperry]

I currently have an Aureon 5.1 PCI(8738, bought for 10 EUR shipped on ebay) and I'm expecting an Aureon 7.1 PCI(8768, 12 bucks shipped on ebay)

this guy refused to ship out of USA anyway: http://cgi.ebay.com/AuzenTech-X-Raider-7-1-Channel-PCI-Sound-Card_W0QQitemZ320480749749

he told me he didn't want to be paid in french francs, hahah

anyway, the 8768 datashet shows +140dB AP measurements on the S/PDIF, and your test confirms that this card is great on highly sensitive headphones...and I can concur, it sounds miles better than the ALC8xx Realtek chips by a long shot!

again, the Sabre DAC used in the nuforce uDAC costs $0.98, and everyone calls it amazing on headphones....as they don't require a lot of amplification in the first place.

this said, the Musiland 02 US has killer drivers, external PSU meaning that you won't suffer from mad PSU jitter due to HDD/ODD/CPU operations(it's been measured by thoppa on head-fi, and was also audible on my Prodigy HD2, which has a crappy ground layout)

100 EUR shipped sounds like a bargain on the Monitor 02 US, really! your average async USB 24/192 audio device usually comes w/ a 4 figures bill as I understand it...it's got an automatic SR switch and does KS on XP, for instance the 0404USB does async but fails on these two points.

what annoys me is the dual opamps, but I'll try to read more reviews..the CMI8738 SS doesn't suffer from op-amp coloration, and the uDAC also doesn't use op-amps.

dual op-amps are highly colored and ruin the SQ...top notch single op-amps like the 797/1028 are very acceptable :agree:

[leeperry]

OTOH, SRC is a CPU hog in 192kHz :p

I do have some amazing 24/96 recordings, but 192 is just plain overkill...OTOH, they only released the "precision clock" thingie for the Monitor serie(1/2/mini)

the PCM1794A that's in the M2US gets 60% warmer in 192kHz than in 44.1 hah...and I don't see any mention of oversampling whatsoever? it was clearly stated in the PCM1792A datasheet..

[VPhile jr.]

OTOH, SRC is a CPU hog in 192kHz :p
I do have some amazing 24/96 recordings, but 192 is just plain overkill...

I think that the benefit of 192kHz upsample is largely confined only to very lossy sources like 128k mp3 stream radio/movies/dvb-t/sat, that's were I tested/'d continue test ReClock the most. Flac wants to remain bit perfect and local 256k mp3 files are happy with 88-96-172-192 depending on the cpu burden of the particular machine as well as the audio master clarity..

[leeperry]

well you're forced to resample movies in Reclock by design, oversampling seems to improve the THD/THD+N figures...better go 198% than 99%, trebles suffer greatly when you do such slight downsampling IMHO.

I think the sweet spot is 88.2kHz, so you add as little data as possible...and more specifically, don't do any arbitrary trimming.

lossless music is better 100% bit-perfect, and lossy decoded in 32float and rendered w/ the highest possible hardware supported bit-depth I think.

[VPhile jr.]

And now for something completely different :disagree:

I was never interested in Squeezbox as the audio path didn't look clear enough, and it is also a bit overpriced gadget. However, JKenny, the M2tech Hiface usb-spdif modder, appeared also on squeezbox forum in the thread about getting raw I2S data from the Duet version and passing it to external DAC -> etc. http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=55044&page=32

Haven't seen it all, it seems he fried the mobo in the end hah, but it was well alive before the incident! ;)
But he repeatedly mentions Hiface usb over Sbox as better performer SQ-wise..

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=squeezebox+duet+i2s&lr=&aq=0&oq=
general info/links on Sbox I2s mods

[mark007]

leeperry, as you have a setup thats close to perfect in my eyes :) what do you use to get vsync. Do you leave sync enabled in mpc-hc, or use reclocks vsync?

I ask because without using reclock, evr-cp and synchrenderer seem to leave me anywhere from 20-40 ms out of audio sync. With reclock it jumps down to low single figures.

Aswell as asking that, I was hoping if you knew if any of these tools / renderers take (or need to take) into account the 1 frame delay added by the aero desktop. i.e. do they compensate for this (or even need to compensate) to get audio / video as close as possible to being in sync.

Just struggling to get a setup that keeps my audio / video in sync at all refresh rates. I have mpc-hc audio delay set to 60ms which should sort the video delay added by my TV, but after that I don't know what other tweaks can be done to get things right.

[leeperry]

@VPhile jr.: nice, let us know how your I2S adventures get through.

hehehe:
Hi leeperry, The 3-second delay on the musiland is not because they are way ahead of competition, it's only because they are stranded with the cheapest part they chose. The XC3S50A has only 2 DCMs. To generate an accurate 44.1kHz series sampling clock, two of them need to be cascaded together (which is not recommended by Xilinx due to large amount of jitter). DCMs are configured at compile time and cannot be dynamically reconfigured unless the complete FPGA is reconfigured. When the sampling rate changes from 44.1KHz series to 48KHz series the driver has to reconfigure the FPGA, which takes a couple of seconds.

besides, I don't really care whether my audio plays at 44099 or 44101 :D

@mark: ah well, did you ever try mVR in KMP? it just works.

the major issue -in my eyes- w/ MPC-HC is that a lot of coders keep trying to fix a broken piece of code in the first place...Beliyaal did tons of changes and suddenly went AWOL, ar-jar tries to somehow improve it...then hell seems to break loose in the end.

I don't use any VSYNC correction, I simply use KMP in "superspeed" mode(it disables all the built-in filters) w/ mVR in 48Hz..et voila :)

the GUI is great(it doesn't look like WMP6.4 for a change), it does seamless playback on WMV/AVI/M2TS/MKV up to 100 files in a row, you can customize pretty much everything(the GUI, the hotkeys, the menus, etc etc), and it just works! I know, that's weird.

[VPhile jr.]

We all know, Logitech Squeezbox is mid-fi at best and after expensive/dangerous mods at that, it has been blown away by 100EUR usb soundcard (M2tech) in direct SQ comparison. And their "high end" Logitech Transport ($2k) offering is just silly piece of joke in comparison to true high end like PS Audio DAC ($3k), so this is clearly not the way forward. But I'm just constantly bugged by that "integration factor", i.e. nice remote and stuff, it's like relapsing disease..

Back to discussing 10EUR hardware and opensource soft/firmware, hah. ;)
(I updated that "CMI audio summary post" on the bottom of previous page)

[leeperry]

well, "high end" and "Logitech" don't really seem to rhyme.

show me a <$450 DAC+headphones amp that has bit-perfect automatically bitmatched drivers w/o major design flaws, and I'll bite...I'm clearly not gonna waste a hundred euros on a M2US and wait 3 secs each time I wanna switch sample rate because they went cheap and used a terrible design(and most likely the next model would fix this major design error)...besides I've been told that whatever they'd do, it'd be a jitter feast, due to only using 2 DCMs.

most ppl who compared the Musiland and the HiFace said the exact same thing...I need a S/PDIF DAC+headamp and feed it w/ the CMI8768 or the HiFace, sadly there doesn't seem to be anything worthy around in the <$450 range.

the uDAC is said to really be killer, and its Sabre DAC costs $0.98...and the PCM1793A in the M2US costs $2.20

in the end, I might settle down for the M1US...it's 55 EUR shipped, I'm not willing to pay twice more for such a bloated design(besides my PSU has a very low jitter on the 5V line). if it's terrible, I'll sell it very easily for 40 bucks or so.

[VPhile jr.]

Speaking of remotes, integration and stuff, what about this Vectir progiee.
It should support control over MPC-HC, Winamp, KMPlayer via Wifi/BT/IR from your handy..
http://www.vectir.com/

/alternatives:
http://www.mobilewitch.com/Mobilewitch-Bluetooth-Remote-Control_software_details_2.htm
http://www.blueshareware.com/

/Squeezbox 3rd party remote control application:
http://nonsmokingarea.com/blog/2009/12/26/ipeng-your-iphone-is-a-squeezebox-remote-control/?mobile

/PS Audio PW DAC handheld/Ipod 2way communication overview (rewind to 4:40)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKm6zDAb7G4&feature=player_embedded
(I like the previous/next song which is missing in stock Vectir, but could be incorporated)

Btw. this is more about the live interaction, i.e. you can see the track currently being played ala Squeezbox remote etc. Obviously, this could be also easily solved by running remote desktop from your htpc to laptop/handheld computer used as front end, but that's not that slick..

[leeperry]

ok I spoke w/ a few ppl, apparently the slightly inaccurate clock on the Musiland is quite a big deal over S/PDIF but not much to whine about for feeding the onboard PCM1793.

the PCM1793 is a cheapo version of the 1794, and the OP275 opamps should do nicely: "it does not have the PCM1794, it has the cheaper and V-out PCM1793, so no I/V conversion is required, just unbalancing, filtering and buffering its outputs.

I will say that the OP275 in that application will certainly work well paired with the PCM1793... the sound will be musical :-)"

my friend is an op-amp nutcase, but I trust his judgment...it's a good guess that the bang for bucks would be high on the M1US :agree:

Vectir looks nice, but all I needed has been achieved w/ the griffin/volumouse so far :)

[leeperry]

yet, this guys says that on his cd3k the 0404USB kills the 02USD: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-monitor-02-better-than-e-mu-0404-usb-440239/

and that'd be the reason for the "high precision" mode: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-monitor-01-usd-24-192-usb-spdif-423960/index43.html#post6167872

[VPhile jr.]

and that'd be the reason for the "high precision" mode: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/musiland-monitor-01-usd-24-192-usb-spdif-423960/index43.html#post6167872

Do you follow links of my post? :disagree:
Yes that's the reason, the Musiland clock wasn't precise enough, as mentioned before this guy meassured it w. oscilloscope:
http://hifiduino.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-are-clocks-generated-in-musiland.html

[Jong]

Any chance of moving this discussion to its own thread?!

[VPhile jr.]

I thought this thread was used from the begining for channeling tangential discussions/issues involving ReClock renderer, and that also means hw/sw stuff including audio card selection/mods, DACs, etc.. It sometimes may appear a bit messy, but this thread is the well of knowledge :D

[Jong]

It's that I like to track this thread for possible new little side discussions but at the moment I'm getting about 10 emails a day about leeperry's and your very detailed discussion! :)

No problem, of course, with you having it, but maybe its earned its own thread?

[leeperry]

lol Jong, I've read you discussing DXVA and VSYNC to greater extends that I would ever care for in the main Reclock threads..besides this is my own chitchat thread, hence the chitchat :D

ignore list still remains a possible option ;)

anyway, jokes aside, these ppl were selling a modified Musiland MD10: http://www.pacificvalve.us/DIYEDENGallery.html

and they ditched the stock AD8599(which is said to be really good!) for OP275(same as the Monitor serie)

sadly, all the feedbacks I find about the Monitor serie are about ppl who only used the S/PDIF and whined about the inaccurate clocking...there's a HP out on these things, but the guys are too snobbish to even try it! OTOH, they rave about the uDAC until the end of days.

maybe a MD10/SVDAC05/SVDAC06 would be an option, they all have optical(PS: but they're 16/48 max over USB)

well, in inaccurate mode, the Monitor serie is mostly playing CD files at 44.2kHz..yikes!

apparently OP275 is good stuff indeed: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/156846-so-many-dacs-choose-3.html#post2058855

[Jong]

It was compliment!

I thought this fascinating discussion deserved its own thread!:)

No worries mate. I'll take myself off the notify list and join it again later when you've knackered yourselves out!:)

[leeperry]

hehe ok...see this thread as a playground ;)

BTW, do you still get your glitches w/ b60? everything's cool for me so far, only 61/62 give me weird crackles and pops(that used to drive me nuts, as I thought that they were caused by unstable op-amps :doh:)

[VPhile jr.]

Off-topic: this story needs to be told, took yet another vintage PC from the "warehouse", very nice almost audio grade looking aluminium barebone (AC97sound) based on socket478 (1.7GHz Celeron Willamette/128K cache/180 nm/63.5W TDP), this is serious heating-transfer piece of old machinery hah. Put ReClock 1.8.6.0 + SRC dll into work (most of the background processes were killed):

=> FLAC <20%cpu @ 44.1kHz / and / 128k mp3 radio stream <95%cpu @ 88.2kHz (Best Sinc setting)
=> temp36°C and falling under bit exact; under upsampling temp46°C and rising..

+ ReClock works nicely from DVB-T usb dongle too!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_4
(Pentium4 TDP list) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Pentium_4_microprocessors#Northwood_ .28130_nm.29
(Celeron TDP list) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Celeron_microprocessors#.22Northwood-128.22_.28130_nm.29
Such are the technological wonders of yesteryear..

I'll probably exchange the fans for modern quiet ball bearing stock (or just decrease voltage/rpm on that noisy guy inside PSU), new thermal grease, and add some Sweex CMI 96kHz PCI card on Dogbert's GPL drivers, perhaps look for the latest P4 cpu revision on this socket to decrease the heat/sound signature if possible, and it will pump hot air, ehm music in another room. Nice experiment would be sourcing 2nd hand full P4 Northwood/1.6GHz/512K with TDP <40W or lowest P4 HT (TDP 66W) 2.4GHz. Alternatively, one could/should discard those energy hungry internals for good and replace it with modern nano/mini mobo with PCI slot, but hey it was on zero budget so far..

I'll match the alu box with nice ext. tin box w. scroll volu-ps2-mouse hack, so far the floppy donated nice sturdy bearing and provisional knob (details described earlier)..

[leeperry]

maybe you'd fancy some of that: http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-to-Spdif-Toslink-and-I2S-Converter-for-DAC_W0QQitemZ270491900484

well, SRC is very demanding...an old P4 cannot stand it for sure.

[VPhile jr.]

Thanks for the link, but those vintage PC projects of mine are just for fun,
so 10-20EUR for Sweex sound upgrade is the way to experiment. Also these old PCs have got quite attrocious USB noise and related issues, so any DAC connected would only suffer.

My main audio-video rig is build around dual core Atom ION and if you recall my test published here, ReClock b62 is doing very fine in multithread on that platform, that's where I'll likely add a proper DAC, that' why I'm still researching how to proceed..

[leeperry]

bang for bucks is stellar on the CMI chips w/ dogbert's drivers for sure :agree:

and the PSU on the Monitor 02 looks pretty weak too, I wouldn't trust the massive EMI it must throw onto the audio circuits or its reliability a few years down the road(I'll prolly sell it in a few months anyway :D).

[leeperry]

hah, indeed...the stock 8738 drivers output 14bit over S/PDIF: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=49350&st=75

nasty :D

and I've been told that the precision driver on the Musiland only support 16/32bit and that KS doesn't run in exclusive mode on XP.

there's also an "auto" sample rate button, but only on XP...it was the same for the Envy24 drivers, Vista/7 are indeed evil.

[VPhile jr.]

Another tidbit form the land of integration, remotes, ..
This Enermax Aurora looks as very promising human-interface-device, in fact this is rumored to be the world's very first wirless keyboard-laser trackball-scroll wheel combo plus it's beaming the way it should be on RF/2.4GHz (comes in black brushed aluminium too, yay): http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/710/2

So, for less than 2x price of Griffin Powermate usb volume knob this baby delivers significantely more oh..
(e.g. think about that wireless scroll-wheel mapped via volumouse among other things)

btw. I'm long time user, almost 10yrs of the original ATI Remote Wonder (and the late Plus rev.), it was the only usable RF remote available on the market (no infra or BT kind of joke!) with many great free add-on plugins (MPC, VLC, Winamp, Powerpoint, ..), now discontinued. Probably, I'll keep wondering till my very last day, which corporate moron pulled the plug on this great product? http://ati.amd.com/products/remotewonderplus/index.html

--
btw. it would be nice to have similar front end gui for MPC-HC/ReClock with basic controls incl. coverart preview.
Also choosing upsample rates/native/bit perfect on the fly ala PS Audio PW DAC (in our case done by auto restart/relaunch of mpc player/reclock), LeeP was advocating for basic functionality along these lines..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF0VFbTCxtk&feature=related (0:30)
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Thermaltake/Luxa2_LM300_Touch_Pro/5.html (scroll bottom) /Vectir template candidate for their MPC-HC plugin!
http://www.madtech.pl/pliki/zalman/hd160xtc/hd160xt_05.jpg

I guess it could be hacked by auto hotkeys, stream info plugin into the player, and some java/flash gfx output.
It has been available for Winamp for ages on the RoadRunner (mp3car) front end.

Perhaps, the new Slysoft Player in maximized window will be the platform of the future and capable of doing all that.
James & team> in any case please make it play .ogg and .flac internet streams, I'm sick of switching between MPC/VLC/Winamp all the time, and don't forget proper album list/folders feature ala that famous winamp plugin, thks

[leeperry]

a friend of mine is nuts about this RF ATi remote..doing all kind of macros and stuff, but quite frankly I just like the idea of having a big aluminium volume pot, I'd even dare to say that it was an old dream of mine :D

yep, but the latency is quite annoying on wireless keyboards from what I've tried so far...it's acceptable on mice, because well...it's so handy!

anyway, I've checked many forums...it looks like my money will go on the Musiland Monitor for sure...too bad you have to wait 3" to swich sample rates, but well it's so damn cheap and yet the specs seem so impressive :agree:

[leeperry]

another friend of mine is having fun w/ AD797/Burson opamps on his X-Fi Forte 7.1:

http://hfr-rehost.net/fullsize/http://self/pic/774bb676db099a7cac0b16b606761dbf436d4cb4.jpeg
http://hfr-rehost.net/http://self/pic/0b08401dfbed8751bd6a34c243d2852c2a13bdc1.jpeg

but the Creative drivers only run ASIO in bit-matched mode, and Reclock doesn't do ASIO..so I'm SOL :(

OTOH, the Forte has a killer discrete headphones amp...but drivers stink as usual.

[VPhile jr.]

Hint for the prospective HTPC builders out there, you might consider Atom Ion 330 (dual core) as we discussed/successfully tested with ReClock here, but recently a special edition incl. one PCI slot has come out, at the moment the best are from Zotac and Asus. In this fashion you can add top PCI soundcard (if you don't fancy usb solutions), e-sata transportable storage for FLACs, etc. I think that Asus (AT3N7A-I) has got onboard BT dongle, and Zotan's line adds onboard wify instead, these are affordable mobos with integrated dual core CPU and full HD gfx chip, silent, low power..

This is an example of bit older atom based project, the magic here is to use touchscreen w. LED backlight (Lilliput 629GL-70NP)
http://www.cknetstudio.com/Main.php?pagecount=5&id=85

--

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/directron/c15803.jpg

In terms of suggested cases, in the [good looks&finish(anodized)/small factor/PCI riser/ext. PSU/not uber expensive..]
category Travla/Casetronic brand seems to be the best option out there. For the audiophiles the C158 model with clean
frontend (DVD drive/usb connectors mounted sideways) looks most appealing..

(mini-itx family) http://www.travla.com/product.php?c1=0000000004&c2=
(more pictures of c158model) http://www.directron.com/c158.html http://www.logicsupply.com/products/c158b_60w
(if PCI is not needed C287, nice rubberpads there!) http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1057/2/

--
edit:

Interesting integration & interaction HTPC control project using internet tablet ala Nokia 770/800/810 as wireless remote, this needs either server demon playing audio files + php control over web browser (as decribed in that 2006 linux project), or standalone software player (w. plugins) which allows for that via LAN network "http remote" (VLC/MPC-HC?), such basic wireless tablet might be more practical than just Lilliput 7" touchpad style device on very short vga cable.. Or you can go with new stuff, real pda like Open Pandora or Archos 5 style internet tablet (but these are more expensive as opposed to 2nd hand Nokia 770/800/810 tablets)..

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9175
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Tablet
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1051311

or google nokia 770/ as remote

Note:
Most of the plugins/solutions seem to be made for the popular opensource XBMC platform, so perhaps a point of departure for us Sly_playerists.. http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=The_Web_Interface

-
!The easiest general setup (not XBMC exclusive) is to run remote desktop via your Nokia 770/..
videos here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9wcEpVa7ps
Install VNC viewer on the handheld (sourced from Maemo - Nokia's Linux OS website)
and run a VNC protocol client on the host PC like tightvnc (or other VNC compatible).
-
!!As above but with hacked firmware, i.e. we get better overall performance from the device,
plus better software options (native VNC), Firmware: Internet Tablet OS 2007 Hacker Edition for the 770 (or newer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPRlR_tBAtQ&feature=related
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aQ62PLi4BQ&feature=related Canola app.
-
ex. of similar N770 project "MCEGuru" primarily for WinMCE (french product?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CII2crrTEe0&feature=related
http://www.mceguru.com/
Linux touchscreen mini-box, what's that? Can we use it..
-
another platform like older (2nd hand) Archos 605wf (w. Qtopia) can be VNC enabled as well (seems sluggish though):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv8bb4v2Jgw
-
old PSP/wifi handheld can be utilized in XBMC as well (perhaps also via VNC in linux distro but it is slow/small LCD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0C1DfCAohg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SreQg1c-VY
-
with XBMC over "http-remote" interface works pretty much everything, incl. PDAs (WM5/6; forum mentions even older WM 2003 SE) via wifi "XBrunzMC PocketPC" which is optimized for this goal: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?t=33021
(only for stock XBMC player, no detailed support for ext. player obviously)
/dark bodied HP rx3715 or higher as refurb to complement eyecatching audio components? Ipaq works also as IR control..
/Installing optimized certain Linux distro (w. VNC viewer) over iPaq/Winmobile might get smoother VNC, haven't tested it yet..
Ipaq 4700 seems to most developed: http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/SupportedHandheldSummary

!!! [.NET VNC Viewer] - opensource VNC client with full screen option and more (reportedly better than RealVNC CE beta)
http://dotnetvnc.sourceforge.net/

http://www.caff.cx/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/vnc_ppc.jpg
http://www.realvnc.com/products/beta/ce/ here kitty: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=445903

!!!UltraVNC (free) now supports even Java client/viewer->server side, so you can control from anything sitting on net and with Java enabled browser only! http://www.uvnc.com/features/javaviewer.html

!!!There are even Mobile VNC servers, so you not just view but have control over that distant PC attached to wifi capable mobile device (incl. file transfer), so this is sort of W/LAN router like extension.. http://www.pocketvnc.com/blog/?page_id=7

Firmware hacked PSP can also work with VNC, but it is comparatively useless Sony like joke:
for the same price, no touch or precise desktop navigating arrows, slow scrolling, slow bootup, ..

---
more here: http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=245886&postcount=391

[leeperry]

indeed, only ASIO is bit-matched on the X-Fi: http://ixbtlabs.com/forum/0010/000043.html

I think I'll get a Musiland 02(apparently the 01 has a very poor ground shielding), and plug it into a $300ish tube amp...no more mr nice guy :D

[VPhile jr.]

Yes, that sounds as a plan, however I'd rather wait for the first confirmed I2S output hack from the Musiland 02 model (should be possible but didn't find any so far), because you might miss on that one later. I think the floodgates on I2S for low-mid segment are just opening up and there will be no looking back, when the chinese DAC clones take it a standard feature.. :bowdown:
The Spdifs of the world shall be buried deep & down.

[leeperry]

I have to admit that I'm under the impression that everyone w/ the right skills likes the challenge of tapping out I2S out of anything...but I hardly ever see any DAC w/ BNC S/PDIF, let alone I2S.

if it takes a 4 figures DAC to get I2S, then it's completely pointless to me....plus what I care for is bit-perfect KS, and I will get this from the musiland.

[VPhile jr.]

Pls. refer to the previous discussions&links. Yes, I agree even Spdif over BNC starts to appear rather slowly (Musiland, M2Tech on special order), to my knowledge I2S appeared only recently (~1yr) on the highend JAVS/ESI usb DACs, to speak about the mortals can buy hardware sort of level.

However, I2S output is not just a fetish toy of the solder iron gurus, it has practical and very real effects on final SQ. For instance, that's why PS Audio demos this feature in their PW Dac and Transport combo, the difference between native sound (I2S) in comparison to Spdif inputs is very noticable even on shitty speakers, jaws are dropping.

Who said multi-thousand budget? You can get the same result with Musiland/M2tech usb devices (enabled/hacked I2S)connected to ~$250 DAC-preamp kit from TP's[BuffaloII(ESS) or Opus(Wolf)]/AMB Gamma2-LinuxWorks-duino/.. based on the same Wolf chip as the big guys. The estimate on total cost depends on couple of variables, beside the stock kit, people might get fancy with the additional stuff like connectors, cabling, casing. But Wolf based (TP's Opus+2xArduino+Musiland usb ala glt's hifiduino) as bare working circuits should be done (w. out labor costs) ~$300, a complete boxed-finalized <$500. Double that for BuffaloII (ESS 32bit), but that's true high end, even better than PS Audio PW DAC (Wolf based).

Ok, I'll give it to you on that one, lets say you hire someone to mod your M2tech hiFace for I2S output, plus building the I2S input capable DAC from the kit, test it all.. You are still looking at <<<$1k pricetag (for Wolf chip version) in comparison to uber expensive commercial solutions. Obviously you don't get the same advanced buffer/lense or the network bridge as with PS Audio, but the basic detouring around stinky Spdif is there at 1/3 - 1/6 of their price.

Demanding bit-perfect kernel YES, I'am all for it (and trying hard), but that's NOT the end of the SQ story, we should be looking for the next available horizont, because you are still getting the original signal destroyed via ~30yr old Spdif, that's why here comes I2S.

Let's say you have found your utlimate PCI soundcard and opamp combo, you can't drive big headphones and certainly not big speakers directly, you need a preamp (amp), you have to connect these boxes (also integrated usb-spdif DACs are not good as we learned earlier in this thread), analog or digital Spdif will always sound worse to proper I2S -> preamp -> headphone/speaker pathway..

On the downside, for practical purposes, short wiring necessary, the best option is to have usb-I2S card/usb dongle very close to that receiving DAC-preamp or integrated in the box.

[leeperry]

yes, from what I read I2S kills S/PDIF on pretty much every level...but as usual, it will be used as a gimmick.

like on this device: http://headphonia.com/USB-DAC-Stick/USB-DAC-Stick-Headphone-Amplifier-Sound-Card::10127.html?XTCsid=24d9f1a36d0dfc744ed89f0d33 f2c335

I2S AHMAGAD, but then it goes through a crappy OPA2134 in the end :D

but now that I'm decided to get the Musiland 02, it's chinese new year and noone can ship it to me before the 1st of March...bummer!

anyway, I was told that its HP out sounds great on the cd3k...so I'll try that before going tubey.

and the musiland uses async USB...either I will use the built-in HP amp(OP275 does sound good!) or will connect it in analog to a tube amp of some sort....I don't care much for either I2S, S/PDIF or AES-EBU tbh

[VPhile jr.]

I don't think that Headphonia example is much relevant to our previous discussion and recommendations (maybe they deliver in their next gen product), but you are probably right that many vendors will just highjack the "I2S" buzzword and run with it, sadly that's to be expected..

Btw. TwistedPear website has been just updated, you can get the best high end DAC a poor man's wallet possibly can afford, BuffaloII (3rd gen): balanced output, direct S/PDIF, I2S and DSD data input formats, .. assembled and tested module for $250, so with additional powersupplies & toroids/transformers (~$40 x 2-3, ~60$ x 2-3x), the IVY-III balanced active I/V line stage with optional filtering IVYII ouput stage ($100), optional digital volume module & firmware ($30), suitable Hammond/Modushop case or similar, IEC power safety module and various connectors/bit & pieces, and Musiland/M2tech hiFace, it's still <$1k and it will rock the house even on Spdif input only (you can leave the I2S adventures for laters). You can also feed with it *headphones directly (with balanced cabling) or even shitty stereo grade amp/preamp for speakers and it will do wonders.. http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/digital/buffalo.aspx

*in similar straightforward layout of the Buffalo's previous gen (as that usb board to the right imagine Musiland/M2tech instead):
http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=762

Overview and wiring schematics for multi-input "mux" version (more also at TwistedP gallery forum):
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f6/twisted-pear-buffalo-sabre-dac-317919/index82.html#post6279525

[leeperry]

sounds like a headache to get all together :D

and a true unbridged balanced HP amp costs an arm an a leg...for very little actual improvement from what some ppl say.

I'm kinda looking for an all-in-one "OMG" solution, hopefully the monitor02 will deliver it! the cd3k is dead easy to drive, even a CMI8738 sounds amazing tbh...it's not like a pesky hd650 or k702, that need mad gear to sound good :disagree:

BTW, I can fully understand why the 16 mins cut of this hit song got so huge in the late 70's: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=Santa+Esmeralda-Don%27t+Let+Me+Be+Misunderstood&aq=f&aqi=&oq=

Tarantino sure has the right ppl to select his soundtracks! the remastered edition of their full album w/ this title song sounds so damn good(and I usually hate disco)...the SS and instruments separation is just fantastic :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

sounds like a headache to get all together :D


The kit pioneers like AMB/TwistedPear + community like glt & linuxworks have already done the major software and hardware exploratory work (for ESS and Wolf chips user controlled via duino boards). Now when the dust settles down, it will be very easy for the beginners-diyers, just following these steps: buy the assembled kits + few additional parts, internal wire it exactly "copy cat style" (according to a reference project), upload/update opensource software, and hit the play button.. Obviously, after gaining some confidence, you can tweak, upgrade here and there.

This will explode in similar manner as cheap poweramp kits had done, basically you get the SQ of PS Audio PW DAC for even less than 1/6 of their price, however without some of their HID/connectivity features at the moment understandably, like touchscreen, LAN bridge/lense etc., but no sweat..

[leeperry]

yes ok, bring the Chinese clones!

cool I got my cmi8768, will try it later today 8)

[VPhile jr.]

CMI8768 in da house, cool! Would it be possible to test/meassure the performance between stock and Dogbert's GPL drivers though? Specifically, the noise level, dynamic range, and stereo crosstalk - there are many free applications available for this task (RightMark Audio Analyzer). That previously linked russian (x-bit) comparative review (also including CMI chips/cards) scared me a bit, as 8738 scored even marginally worse than Realtec ALC850, the CMI8768 was much better (clear winner), but I don't recall they used the GPL drivers, I doubt it since published way back in Q4/2006.
And the noise floor was quite shallow w. spikes anyway for GPL (as it is rumored to be cleaning everything out)..
Thanks http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/cmi8768.shtml http://audio.rightmark.org/products/rmaa.shtml

[leeperry]

well, there's really no need for any RMAA tbh...I can run 100% master volume and there's no hissing noise whatsoever, the stereo image also seems more nervous(better jitter?)..it was very flabby on the 8738.

also, no 88.2/96kHz in analog..I've tried everything, I've reported the issue to dogbert.

only been running it for 10 mins so far, but it's impressive what 10 bucks can buy you these days for sure! I'm sure the Musiland Monitor 02 will blow me away :D

[VPhile jr.]

Ok, so what is the name of the card exactly, is it brand new (would you post macro shot of the CMI chip w. that fineprint info)? In case this is ebay stuff (manuf. date 2006 and older) it's quite possible that these earlier CMI8768 chip revisions won't allow for 88.2/96kHz analog even under Dogbert's drivers (and CMI8738 can't do over 48kHz analog at all). At least that's what I (imagine to) remember from his thread on hydrogen forums.. Also, there were some issues w. the implementation made by/for Terratecs, that's why we pushed here "new" /96kHz analog confirmed/ Sweex cards.

--
GENERAL INFO Launch date 2005, April
Availability America, Europe, Romania (Dracula's home); Casing Plastic; Color options Black

GENERAL Inputs Line-in,2 CD audio inputs(MPC3),Aux In (MPC3), Digital CD audio
Outputs 8 analog outputs ,SPDIF out, TosLink I/O

OTHERS Output Quality 16bit/48KHz
Input Quality 16bit/48KHz
SPDIF I/O (TOS Link) 24-bit/96KHz (can work as Dolby Digital pass-through)
Supported 3D layers Direct sound, Sensaura, EAX

http://gadgets.softpedia.com/gadgets/Computer-Hardware/The-Terratec-Aureon-7-1-PCI-Sound-Card-3188.html

[leeperry]

it's an Aureon 7.1, the user manual says 2006

[leeperry]

anyway, it's not like they said it'd do 88.2/96kHz over analog in the card specs: http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/5427/aure.th.png (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/aure.png/)

[VPhile jr.]

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv317/sergien/CMediaDriver-2.jpg

..by chance, any improvement when unboxing these settings:
http://sergien.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/foobar-parte-2-una-tarjeta-de-audio-adecuada/

[leeperry]

nope, I tried already...no dice.

BTW, one thing that's pretty cool is that you can swap the front and back channels...if you set the default stereo output to the front, you go through the master volume control attenuation...but if you set it to the back, you get fully bit-perfect untouched analog...very nice feature for such a cheap card.

quite frankly, for someone w/ a pair of 50 bucks headphones this is a no brainer IMHO...also nice for cheapo 16/96 max S/PDIF I guess ;)

[VPhile jr.]

you can swap the front and back channels...if you set the default stereo output to the front, you go through the master volume control attenuation...but if you set it to the back, you get fully bit-perfect untouched analog...very nice feature for such a cheap card.


probably not only meant as convenience feature, but based on some hardware limitation, if you recall the following graph from the xbits review, there is real difference between front/rear channels..
http://www.ixbt.com/multimedia/cmi8768/8.png

Btw. in any case it will be worth the effort tracking down the reason, why is the 96kHz analog not available on older Terratecs, would you contact Dogbert, he can at least post warning for this particular model on the list of supported cards? http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers/wiki/SupportedDevices

Hm, in a way, Dogbert himself confirms the xbit findings by recommending the digital out over analog,
i.e. use this card as a transport to DAC-preamp, instead of direct driving the headphones on analog:
"that depends whether or not you use the analog ports. The analog part of C-Media chips is rubbish, so the soundblaster would be the better choice. If you use the digital outputs only, then the C-Media card in conjunction with my drivers is superior." http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/open-source-wdm-drivers-cmi8738-8768-based-cards-210592/

[leeperry]

ah, good point! but RMAA goes through KMixer, so the difference might just be exactly that :D

ouuuuh, the 02US is $130 shipped on ebay today...must....resist..

yes, I've notified dogbert.

[leeperry]

Hm, in a way, Dogbert himself confirms the xbit findings by recommending the digital out over analog,
i.e. use this card as a transport to DAC-preamp, instead of direct driving the headphones on analog:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/open-source-wdm-drivers-cmi8738-8768-based-cards-210592/
ok I've told dogbert, but he doesn't give a damn about the analog output on these cards ;)

well, on easy to drive headphones, at 10% master volume these chips sound miles better than a realtek for sure! bass is very percussive and the SS is very wide and clear, and there's no hiss whatsoever....again, on speakers at 100% volume this would prolly be a completely different story ;)

anyway, I've just ordered the 02US...at 96 EUR shipped w/ a 1 year warranty, hard to say now 8)

and someone on head-fi just compared the uDAC to the 02US: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6388104-post1206.html

[VPhile jr.]

Hm, so Dogbert doesn't have a clue why older '05-06 Terratecs (5.1 version is still on the market and might work) don't perform on 96kHz analog (different chip rev., pcb design)? Any relation to the chip's designation ending as "+" ?
:D

Anyway, Musil 02 is good compromise if you need all these output connectors (and no inputs) in the chain before /real/ preamp, btw. this guy makes (-claims) direct comparison to his own Asus Essence STX (3x LME49720NA) and he prefers his new external DAC (~$60 cheaper) over the STX. http://www.overclock.net/sound-cards-computer-audio/594406-musiland-02-monitor-us-asus-essence.html

[leeperry]

1) god only knows...dogbert focuses on S/PDIF, analog is not much of his concern.

2) I've owned the STX, very forward and agressive sound! it was nice for the first weeks, then it got really annoying.

majkel told me that OP275 is mediocre at best...ah well, I *want* 24/96 support, it'll still be better than an M-Audio Audiophile USB or whatever other internal soundcard I hope :o

[VPhile jr.]

Anybody tried that XBMC (or Boxee) opensource media front/end with the external player support (MPC-HC/VLC) and ReClock renderer?

Hm, it seems to work with video (TMT with VBS script): http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?t=64658

The combination of launching ext. player plus various control scripts and *rules may help advance functionality of these quality (MPC-HC/VLC) players, for instance launching different ext. player based on specific codec/container ala batch. MPC/VLC are not exclusively audio playback oriented projects in terms of their development (although they often excel at that), so our concerns/issues were hitting bottom on their list.

*http://forum.xbmc.org/showpost.php?p=499107&postcount=995 http://forum.xbmc.org/showpost.php?p=499107&postcount=997
e.g. mutliple player config: http://forum.xbmc.org/showpost.php?p=480924&postcount=968
http://forum.xbmc.org/showpost.php?p=496868&postcount=54

/The seemless incorporation of playlists (from MPC-HC), seek progres and similar features is probably not done yet, but they seem to be working on it, go few pages back on that thread.

The XBMC has got internal web server and remote interface for the media library => fairly extensive wireless remote support (Ipod, older Internet Tablets like Nokia 770/800/810, Archos 605wf, Archos5, other Linux/Java wireless tablets, etc.). So this could potentialy solve both the no-fancy front end [available/ever planned] for the poor MPC-HC/VLC of the world and latest development in remotes for LAN/hdd audio library playback ala Squeezbox/PS Audio PW DAC.
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=HOW-TO_use_an_External_Player_for_media_playback
Hm, dedicated thread on their forum, lol: http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?t=43511
http://wiki.xbmc.org/?title=The_Web_Interface

Also refer to my updated post on "http remotes" here:

http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=245468&postcount=369 <- wireless touchscreen control for hifi HTPC <$100 solved there
http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=245122&postcount=351

[VPhile jr.]

Hm, just tried XBMC(portable)+MPC-HC+ReClock(1.8.6.0-SRC) setup with one of those vintage audio-PCs not to affect my tuned up Atom 330 main HTPC rig. Worked as expected, firstly you browse your fancy media library, after hitting play it maximizes MPC (external mode), which takes a few secs, you can go back to XBMC GUI while inside the track-song played by MPC, but the track info like time/seek bar is not updated, the music is not on the background as with the stock XBMC music player, where you can browse the library, tweak settings etc. The ext. player is closing correctly, i.e. you fall back into your XBMC GUI without issues. Most importantely, ReClock seems to work ok, kept to his bit exact ways, no violent activity showing on clock correction, ..

That XBMC web server as seen across LAN was obviously not updating the track info (with the ext. player) either, you can browse/shows only the actual directory/playlist, play and stop buttons worked, previous/pause/pause commands did not, so apparently all these remote gizmos connected via (http-remote) won't fully work in this scenario.

In summary not bad, was kind of worried/expecting it won't work at all, but sort of half way there, they should incorporate MPC natively into the XBMC, or at least finalize the missing interaction during playback.

At the moment seems more usable to movies content, not music where the songs are changing rapidly and MPC-HC as ext. player needs to restart on each track, which starts to be annoying on slower machines, shouldn't be an issue with Atom 330 and up though.

Used this generic settings (should work for most first time experimentators, double check your path, also add mp3 and flac):
http://forum.xbmc.org/showpost.php?p=448809&postcount=898

Important note-
select portable mode during install (admin/single user winmachine logon), also don't select your main media library/folders yet, test it firstly on just few music folders set aside for which you apply some common naming standards etc., so the XBMC engine can associate art/info and match it 100% to your library. More on proper general setup in youtube tutorials..

--

So, probably as of today it seems more appealing not to use XBMC as my/recommended primary music frontend, you can get more fluent overall experience by just runing that full remote desktop via VNC from any of those previously mentioned "fast" linux based internet tablets (or other mini-itx PC/netbook, perhaps even 2003+ (>400Mhz?) WinMobile based PPC/Smartphone could make it, refer to my updated gargantuan post on remotes from "369" link). Under VNC remote desktop you can see/adjust your track folders, ReClock, MPC and everything on your PC desktop/machine comfortably in one place and with familiarity as usual. Perhaps an ObjectDock/Yz Dock kind of application for the host htpc, which directly launches the most prefered media formats and stuff might be utilized with the VNC remote desktop, doubt the animations will be super smooth, but big and visible to navigate it is, and that counts.

- btw. standalone VLC player has got quite nice web server/remote interface, seems more detailed&robust than XBMC, you can start here and enable individual info tabs within the browser page (e.g. http://127.0.0.1:8080/) http://wiki.videolan.org/Control_VLC_via_a_browser

[leeperry]

yes, my friend w/ the RF ATi remote also uses XBMC+MPC HC in EVR(at least gamut conversion is dead easy to set up) on his HC3100...he's very happy w/ it.

and for +$10, they're shipping the 02US in Express EMS...so hopefully I'll have it early next week! he's even testing it beforehand so I don't get a DOA...very cool!

now I want a tube amp...so badly...must...resist..

this guy sells russian tubes for so darn cheap: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130334726822

I love it when I don't have the feeling to be listening to mp3's on a crappy soundblaster...AD797B did that to me, I want it again :bang:

[VPhile jr.]

Interestingly enough, there are some _old rumors circling around the possibility forcing ReClock renderer over VideoLAN's VLC player. It's quite hilarious, a moderator over their formus claims (in 2006-7), that it's in indeed possible, but in his view us mere mortals don't need it, and it supposedly takes 2-3days to set it up anyway.. :bang: :doh:
:disagree:

http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41684
http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26942
http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22676

the vacant [kernel streaming out of VLC for winPC machine] thread: http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=54223

Asio/PortAudio on VLC: http://88.191.250.119/viewtopic.php?p=64872&sid=ea2a401c8ae004b1e61eef278cca89cf#p64872

!But, found ASIO/PortAudio settings (sounds clearer, hah another doze of placebo):
http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?p=163798#p163798 http://forum.videolan.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69209&p=238001

More on PortAudio library and ASIO SDK Steinberg: http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/install/pa/pa.htm
on compiling and [libportaudio.a]
http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2004-September/013638.html
http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2004-October/013646.html
!http://mailman.videolan.org/pipermail/vlc-devel/2004-October/013698.html

[leeperry]

VLC is such a complete failure...nothing beats KMP anyway.

[VPhile jr.]

Is KMP capable playing high quality .flac/.ogg internet streams? Is there any web server - remote control inside the application? I think on both ocassions it's not the case, also their forum feels moribund, smells kind of dead end project..

I'd say currently there is usable only the sacred trio: MPC-HC/ReClock, Winamp/ASIO4ALL-Otachan, VLC
(+some of the Cuda enabled HD-DVD/BR movie players like TMT)

[leeperry]

KMP has extensive support for internet streams, and carries both FLAC/OGG internal decoders yes...but I never tried any of these.

anything you could do in MPC can be done in KMP..

KMP is anything but dead..

I use KMP/ffdshow/CoreAVC CUDA/Reclock for movies and MPC Classic/madflac/ffdshow/Reclock for music(because it opens faster than KMP)...so far, so good :agree:

KMP does seamless playback on MKV/WMV/AVI/MPG/M2TS for up to 100 files in a row..you can loop a section in 2 clicks, customize the GUI and hotkeys in whichever way....KMP is highly addictive.

[VPhile jr.]

Well that's why we have to stick for certain media with VLC, let me repeat it again, MPC/-HC (+ReClock renderer) can't play high quality internet streams such as this CD quality (~750kbps FLAC) output directly fed from the digitized studio/archive of a real-world radio station, so most likely KMP would fail as well (+ I don't want/have this player): http://amp1.cesnet.cz:8000/cro-d-dur.flac

[leeperry]

I don't quite see why madflac or ffdshow couldn't decode this....and VLC doesn't support KS/ASIO/WASAPI, does it?

[VPhile jr.]

MPC can't work these streams, because life sucks (the short answer)..
/ From the technical standpoint it's is a FLAC stream within OGG container:
/ http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?postid=2562059 http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/5/56991.html
Mplayer/SMPlayer (for win) related: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/93315-linux-audio-way-go-147.html#post2073530

One of not so funny responses from the MPC circles was, that we don't need to support it, when it decodes well with VLC (and Foolbar) already! However, not playing in bit exact mode with the stock version of VLC (for audiophilic needs).

See, for more details my post #394 above, dealing with PortAudio/ASIO, apparently VLC can work Kernel/ASIO/ on winmachines, but they have chickened_out 'cause some silly licensing issues to ASIO-Steinberg SDK, so people have to compile it on their own and not share/discuss it publicly. Above all, VLC is driven mainly by the Linux clan of devs, the windoze platform is understaffed and audiophilic needs/issues are not (down) on the list..

[leeperry]

not playing in bit exact mode with the stock version of VLC (for audiophilic needs).
bypassing KS on XP is not idiophilic, it's common sense...anyway, if foobar can play it you're saved! :D

[VPhile jr.]

That was a sick joke, right? ;)
I don't need [Foo]L[bars] and KMP-stolenware sort of products, these quality FLAC streams can be played on VLC, which could be tweaked to (near) bit exact perfomance (I'm still experimenting with that PortAudio output in VLC). As a last restort Winamp-ASIO4ALL-Otachan's plugin setup plays these streams as well, but it pops up some german written error codes and can't be controlled anymore (sort of semi-crash), but the music continues to stream in the backgroud, oh well :p

[leeperry]

yes, PotPlayer and KMP are stealing code from MPC and ffdshow...but it should only matter to the ppl who coded them IMHO.

MPC-HC is such a failure on so many levels...the damn thing can't even close properly for many ppl(including me), it remains as a system process and needs a hard kill to vanish for good.

KMP plain works, its genius coder decided to translate MPC's C++ code to Delphi for many components(there's even some buggy HSLS code from Haali in KMP...buggy code is where Haali shines anyway :D)....but why should an end-user care? nothing comes close to these 2 players....besides, many ppl watch rips downloaded from the internet(I don't of course!), so how is that a big deal that KMP uses some stolen GPL code but perfectly fine to watch movies for free? :p

so you want full bitrate FLAC internet radios, but are willing to play them through KMixer? I must be missing something here ;)

besides winamp should be fine, german is such a beautiful language in its own right.

[VPhile jr.]

?As mentioned, for these FLAC streams I use Winamp/Asio4all-Otachan and it's bit exact (although I'm not fan of the audio renderer inside), there might be a way how to enable it in VLC as well, still exploring the PortAudio output modul, +recompile with ASIO SDK library. And in case, I'm bored anyway, you know the score with players and Kmixer (all sliders up, theme sounds off, background processes off, volume controlled only via master slider/<10%, external amp) you get the least damage from these extra layers of code dealing with sound inside winmachine..

Sometimes I just hate this stuff:

-players/renderers with different sound even when claiming native/bit exact output
-each player supporting haphazzardly completely different set of codecs
-no frontends at all or bloated frontends instead
-no web server - remote interface or halfbaked implementation
-all that above chaos multiplied by different cross platform functionality (Winmachine XP/7, MacOS, Linux)
..

=> this business is one giant mess, and I wonder we ever get the ultimate "knows it all" kind of player,
I'm certainly not for uniformity, but the current state is ridiculous. Perhaps sometimes $10k plunked down for your
PS Audio PW (DAC + Transport) + Power Plant Premier AC Regenerator => finally reaching the state of (relative) tranquility, hah

[leeperry]

they should just licence Reclock in popcorn's and we'd all call it a day w/ the pesky HTPC's

and BTW, even TMT was caught stealing MPC HC's splitters I think...they forgot to change the GUID :D

I don't believe in bit-perfect DS...I know some ppl say it can be done, good for them.

[VPhile jr.]

Speaking about audio frontends, what we didn't touched upon yet is the viability of Squeezbox Server (formely Center), which is a free streaming server (based on linux audio player daemon) with remote interface over the web/LAN, so remote control via the same kind of internet tablet/java enabled browser described previously. The server itself works on Linux, Microsoft Windows, Apple Macintosh, BSD. So, you need 3parts: Server + Slave (headless client player) + SqueezOS/Play (GUI frontend).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeezebox_Server http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Old_Man's_Index
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SqueezeSlave#Linux_build_instructions also Windows build instructions incl. *ASIO
http://sourceforge.net/projects/softsqueeze/files/squeezeslave/squeezeslave-0.9.95/ looks as already compiled, hah?

Also Minimalist shell player (Wasapi/Asio) now called StealthAudioPlayer
http://andy-audioplayer.blogspot.com/2008/12/minimalist-wasapi-memory-player_23.html
usefull audio format convertor utility SoX: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoX

3rd party hardware (NAS storage, like Buffalo LinkStation or other FreeNAS capable):
http://forums.slimdevices.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18

(*?Now, the issue is the 3rd part hw audio player, clearly HTPC would be the best option, but that's the same trap as before, it must be bit perfect with majority of codecs and audio output/drivers)

Logitech's $300 remote ported as freeware to windows already in 2008, so theoretically also doable for PPC handhelds platform
(didn't check that yet): http://www.itwriting.com/blog/471-trying-out-squeezecenter-and-jive.html
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Old_Man's_Index (Jive) and other links
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SqueezePlay_Applets btw. Jive has become part of SqueezeOS/Play
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SqueezeOS
--
E.g. this guy is feeding Emu 0404 USB from the Squeez Center @ 24bit/192kHz..
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/93315-linux-audio-way-go-145.html#post2038476
Hm, I've got a free partion on my ATOM 330 for experimental OS install, may give it a try eventually..

[leeperry]

ah yes! I forgot about this one: http://andy-audioplayer.blogspot.com/2008/12/minimalist-wasapi-memory-player_23.html
none of my soundcards were doing ASIO up to now, so I didn't try it...but the Musiland 02 does(god knows if they pay the fee to Steinberg :D), so I'll definitely give it a shot!
I like when he says: "The main feature of this player is that it does not have a GUI interface. I intentionally do not do any gui for this player. I strongly believe that any interaction with any part of the OS influences the sound."

playing an audio file on windows is far more complicated that it would appear...there's a PDF where the cPlay coder says that you want to underclock your CPU, unplug your ODD, use a SSD or NAS to avoid increasing EMI/RFI/PSU jitter(a HDD makes it go up the roof, it's been measured by ppl I know).

quite honestly, I very much like how Reclock sounds...and many ppl on head-fi do too! it definitely doesn't feel like placebo to me, the difference against foobar is way too big.

indeed Linux would save you from the windows audio stack bloat.

[VPhile jr.]

ah yes! I forgot about this one: http://andy-audioplayer.blogspot.com/2008/12/minimalist-wasapi-memory-player_23.html

Glad, you noticed this hidden treasure, StealthAudioPlayer. It all started as Vista/W7, now works with XP as well, you can try ASIO4ALL v2 driver then! Put this strange un-GUI into simple preliminary test, it even plays well with my set of vintage PCs with onboard audio (+ quality headphones), going to try source better audio hardware for weekend..

?SQ? You ask me? Hm, ehm, well simply fell of the chair on Susanna and the Magical Orchestra (CD 2004), they just suddenly came to visit me in person from Norway. Later tried also some Bach classic, the sound of spinet was like drilling into your hypothalamus. I'm looking forward to some FLAC spinets from that little guy, Amadeus of Salzburg, that's gonna rock!

CPU utilization during playback almost zero, mem usage toll was according to source quality of audio file (and its duration), usually FLACs didn't take more than 60Megs per track.. I got the feeling why PS Audio and other big honchos play only from memmory buffer/lense instead of noisy&vibrating&chipinfested hdd, hah :bowdown:

This player is definately not placebo and it should be reportedly sounding even better on W7 machines..
The install and controls are easy but totaly batch crazy. Not saying it's better than ReClock yet,
but definately better than most of the top players out there, this should be way above foo_L_barism

PS according to blog's comment section - SqueezSlave client /port could be eventually done with this player..

[leeperry]

well, memory playback is not the be all/end all of windows audio music IMO...quite frankly, you can set foobar to cache the files in RAM...and it sounds even worse than from HDD, hah!

I've compared many times, it's just WORSE.

[el Filou]

they should just licence Reclock in popcorn's and we'd all call it a day w/ the pesky HTPC's
Huh ?
Somehow I don't see why a PCH would need ReClock in the first place as ReClock has been created to fix problems specific to the PC platform.
If I'm not mislead, PCH and the like use a single chip that does everything from decoding to output, except the UI for which they have a small CPU on the side.
Do you think standalone media players like PCH have clock problems as bad as PCs ?

[VPhile jr.]

Performed head to head comparison between headless players, that's right. ;)
As described and promised in #408 & #406 posts, installed over home network and winXP machines:

Squeeze Server + Slave (headless client player) + SqueezePlay (GUI frontend).

All worked nicely with ASIO4ALL ver2 support out of the box, didn't need to recompile anything (as feared). Overall performance was very smooth, in terms of SQ output from their stock headless player (Slave), the outcome was certainly above my anticipation, so very good, comparatively speaking all major players blown away. And I haven't had time for any recommended standard or even "aftermarket" tweaks yet.

Now comes the kicker, after some A-B sessions, it's apparent from the first seconds of each track and could be safely concluded that Andy's StealthAudioPlayer adds another SQ layer way above that, simply chilling experience (with quality audio masters), it will be very impressive if he finishes the upgrades to offer it as alt. headless player within the Squeeze Universe. Although as he fears adding any new threads needed for the client-server communication might adversely affect the excellent sound performance.

In any case, we can be happy campers just right now, as we can have this top sound via ordinary batch/drar&drop/cue methods without any GUIs, media libraries, frotends..

-
The only negative experience with Squeeze so far? The Slave player (ASIO ver) posted decoding errorss over some normal/low bit rate/128mp3 streams, so switching between music libray FLAC playback and internet radios needed restart of the Slave. But I was running nightly builds of all these applications, so this could be a non issue later on.. And if not you can always run the radio streams outside this frontend anyway..

[edit]
This is known cross-platform bug in server version 7.4, since 7.3 has no probs while rapidly changing local flacs and internet streams. Some even suggest 7.4 server was deliberately nocked by the Logitech devs as to supress potential 3rd party hardware players, which could easily use with headless SqueezeSlave any generic hardware..
!links and development in this bug:> https://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=14740

[edit] Also, the issue is complicated by the fact that SqueezeSlave is currently limited to *44.1kHz max, you go above that and it just hangs, SqueezePlay seems working though (?!), the server protocol should go uto 96kHz ..
* http://www.mail-archive.com/discuss@lists.slimdevices.com/msg131519.html

=> so as expected it's several bugs/limitations conspiring at once
--

Interactive:
The screen shot is an 80x4 command prompt running squeezeslave-0.9-119.exe -r15 -D -w78 ///spikes on CPU - don't likeey
Key mappings are listed in the --help/-h information.
Display not for asio ver. as of now?

[leeperry]

Do you think standalone media players like PCH have clock problems as bad as PCs ?
why wouldn't they? do they use a hard masterclock like Reclock?
Squeeze Server + Slave (headless client player) + SqueezePlay (GUI frontend).
not on windows I guess? anyway, yesterday I found a link where the guy said that audio on windows was tough because the stupid OS is not meant for realtime AT ALL.

I remember BeOS, they said it'd be a fully realtime oriented OS...supposedly fantastic for multimedia, m$ is trying to catch up w/ HPET on Vista/7...maybe W8 mid-2011 will nail it down.

someday I will have to switch from XP, but if there's a new OS every 18 months...I might just take my time :D

[VPhile jr.]

not on windows I guess?
?Sorry don't grasp what you mean by that at all? Btw. you should definately try (and compare/contrast to my findings) that headless StealthAudioPlayer, it's completely non-intrusive, simple batch operation..

[leeperry]

oh, it's on windows...I'll look into it.

hah, looks so cool: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f70/ortofon-headphone-amp-hd-q7-471850/

but grossly overpriced! my griffin makes a lot more sense :p

[sam2]

why wouldn't they? do they use a hard masterclock like Reclock?

I think standalone media players use media decoding chip with single hardware clock driving both video and audio, similar to what standalone DVD and Blue Ray players use.

That's why a $30 DVD player outputs perfectly smooth video while $1000 HTPC outputs jerky video (without reclock).

[VPhile jr.]

http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/HD_players.html

Meridian - Sooloos Source:One

Picture shows interesting "flat style" implementation of riser PCI card inside this htpc:
- big/airy custom rack case as opposed to small and cable cramped Travlas - even the big ones
(looks to me like sourced machined heatsink profiles from Fischer, plus few cut cover panels)
- RME Hammerfall DSP 9632 PCI
- Mini-ITX board (Via Epia)
- power source (should make into separate box)
- Linux
=> final price is 5x or even more than parts used

PS the website has got some info on Linux players and also lot of the other topics (and audioph theory) we mentioned here

[leeperry]

I think standalone media players use media decoding chip with single hardware clock driving both video and audio, similar to what standalone DVD and Blue Ray players use.

That's why a $30 DVD player outputs perfectly smooth video while $1000 HTPC outputs jerky video (without reclock).
ok, but they output 23.976/24fps at a perfect multiple? because 60Hz is no good.
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/HD_players.html
you like LCD screens w/ the name of the song playing, don't cha? :D

ah well, I'm torn....tubes get hot as hell, are very ineffecient energy-wise and painful to roll(need to adjust the bias yada yada)....opamps are madness to roll as well, as the best ones are very unstable and clearly can't be rolled blindly :rolleyes:

I think I'll go back to Burson, they make good stuff! it's discrete, so it's a perfect in-between crappy IC's and annoying tubes :agree:

this said, I'm gonna put back the 8738...the 8768 might measure better on the line-out, but the trebles are just plain annoying.

[VPhile jr.]

you like LCD screens w/ the name of the song playing, don't cha? :D
/Was refering to this pic: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Pictures/Hardware/MusicServer/Sooloos-SourceOne.jpg

That's correct, but not necessarily on front face of the player, remote control with display is even better as talked about in abundant detail in previous posts, new finding: SqueezeSlave (Interactive edition) is capable of driving those usb-LCDs like VFD, 2x16 etc.

Btw. the trebles on your CMI Terratec, is it also digital output issue? If I recall it correctly you didn't care much for analogs on them similarly to Dogbert, right? Perhaps you should have tried some non "+" chip CMI cards like Sweex, these old Terratecs are known to be crazy.. What about Andy's headless player, did you try it?
Edit: give it a whirl even on "POS soundcard" now, that's how you gauge the difference/improvment..

[leeperry]

8768/8768+/8770 are the same chip AFAIK(only 70 has DDL, or the opposite?):

http://thumbnails28.imagebam.com/6812/2d4c7a68116376.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/2d4c7a68116376)

well I got a POS soundcard atm(my 32Ω cd3k directly connected to it), lemme get the Musiland 02US + a Burson HA-160 and I'll be glad to try any super neato media player :D

EDIT: oh yes, 8738 sounds so much more musical than 8768 on headphones :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

Perhaps there is a way how to play those quality oggflac internet radio streams afterall, and now even with Squeeze (on winmachine). [edit] _e-hehe_ it just works, finally CD quality radio via kernel in my home!

Firstly, it's necessary to get mplayer binary into your Squeeze server directory, obviously it can't be standard linux mplayer version, but only the one compiled for the winmachine. Lets try quick and dirty method, no compiling, sourcing it elsewhere..

This is originaly a plugin for real audio playback which should install mplayer into your server bin directory, it should even include testing batch, which plays online bbc tunes. The install appears to be rather old (7.3version), so perhaps we should also look for another way.
Package: http://www.x2systems.com/AlienBBC/installation.html bin only http://www.x2systems.com/AlienBBC/MPlayer-v1.0rc2.exe
C:\Program Files\SqueezeCenter\server\Bin\MSWin32-x86-multi-thread <- put it here
-
[edit] or even easier, just copy that mplayer.exe from SMPlayer-portable for windows package install (it's ~2yrs younger binary)
-
Next step involves changing/adding settings for the oggflacs (and some server tweaks), so create/copy custom-convert.conf and put inside new lines for it as per this example, follow further instructions bellow: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/93315-linux-audio-way-go-148.html#post2075925
-
[edit] as always there wouldn't be fun without some prior sour grapes, so the earlier described bug when switching between FLAC library and favorite net radio streams still applies, which ought to be expected, as it is likely related to a different problem.

[leeperry]

hey cool, you got your FLAC radio up and working then! I personally like to select my own music, as I like many different styles...but none of them are too commercial, so I like the idea of having a huge FLAC library.

anyway, my Musiland has made it to Paris now, so I shall have it on tuesday or so :agree:

this guy says that it kills the STX, and I didn't like the STX...so that's good :D
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/1343583.htmlthe STX... it was very sharp with most songs but it lacked a bit of clarity
[..]
It wasn't just the quantity of bass but the quality also. It was just much deeper and fuller sounding – like a completely new experience.

and I really like how the 8738 sounds on headphones!

[sam2]

ok, but they output 23.976/24fps at a perfect multiple? because 60Hz is no good.

Yes, they output 23.976/24fps, and TVs sync to that (TVs with support for 24p input).

Even DVD players with progressive output work like that, not to mention Blue-Ray players and HD media players.

[VPhile jr.]

Hm, little bummer for today, the geat Minimalist Audio Player aka StealthAudioPlayer for Windows XP/7 halts development at latest 0.1.1. version for the mid-term future. Andy, the author seems busy, and also migrated to MacOSX recently..
http://andy-audioplayer.blogspot.com/2009/11/stealthaudioplayer-with-cue-sheet.html#comments

[leeperry]

does it read FLAC/MP3/M3U? I see it also does gapless ASIO...we might be in business :)

I'm still trying to get it off RS, which is busy as hell.

I think I'm gonna get an Auzen soundcard, put two AD797B on it(it's officially supported by Auzen!)....because only ASIO is automatically bit-matched I would need to set the masterclock to whatever I wanna use Reclock at, and play audio in an ASIO player :agree:

the auzen carry fully discrete headamps, I like the sound of that.

[VPhile jr.]

does it read FLAC/MP3/M3U? I see it also does gapless ASIO...we might be in business :)

What I mostly tried: FLAC, WAV, MP3, usually in high bitrates, no prob..
Didn't try M3U, it supports CUE though. And no internet stream obviously, eh didn't try that one myself,
maybe this is the secret "white rabbit" function yet to be discovered, hah :)

You can also play files/directories via win explorer's right click, that's optional during install, it goes into registry..

[leeperry]

ok so I tried the PlayWasapiASIO_0.0.6 w/ ASIO4ALL on XP SP3/dogbert's 8738 drivers.

-Reclock in KS/madflac/MPC/ffdshow pass-through = perfect as usual, SS is very wide/uncolored, sound is very clear and just very pleasant

-foobar in KS/ASIOALL = it sounds less refined, more agressive, not so nice..don't like it!

-playwasapiasio 0.6 = sound seems distorted, SS seems colored to death...not too good IMHO.

but ASIO4ALL is a hack, I'll try on the musiland tomorrow.

I'll try the new versions of XXHighEnd as they seem to work on XP now: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?board=1.0

[VPhile jr.]

Why are you using ~year old version, when latest version of this player is 0.1.1? But you are right in one thing, that ASIO4ALL is more like shortcut to bypass kmixer than full fledged ASIO connectivity. In any case I stick with my previous observation and conlusion, something was likely amiss with your setup.. 8)

Btw. how did you configure the ASIO4ALL tabs? It can surely cripple the SQ horribly if not set properly..
For starters try latency at 0, and max. buffer size, no hw buffer, ..

Set priority for the player process at high or real time, stop known background spoilers like wlan, antivirus/spyware etc.

[leeperry]

well, because b11 can't do ASIO apparently...only b6 can, and it does sound clipped on my set up(foobar does not), I've also tried to mess w/ the ASIO4ALL settings to no available.

I can't get XXHighEnd to play any audio, and the GUI is painful anyway...back to Reclock and its "honey in my ears" sound :D

[VPhile jr.]

well, because b11 can't do ASIO apparently...
? ASIO support was added since 0.6.6 and the later versions carry it on..

[leeperry]

I don't get an .ini file w/ b11?? I just get an error msg that WASAPI no workee.

[leeperry]

there's also this player: http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.project9k.jp%2F

supposedly as good as XXHighEnd...gonna try it :D

[VPhile jr.]

Strange, isn't there problem in that enabled=0/1 business or something?

Went through another A-B, hard to compare those two, my impression is that Andy's player gives more clarity and detail (not oversharpness), which is missing on ReClock, but it excells on dynamics, that's likely from doing its clock thing. However, sometimes because of that ReClock sounds to me much like "drama queen" on every track/style or year, I gather that's result of *uberclock.

When one player needs +5% improvement, the other one would benefit from -5% of what is overdoing. Sorry, don't have that advanced terminology on my findings. Perhaps a direct meassurement (some silly graphs) could help me out. In any case, these two are my picks for top players.

*lot of 10-20yrs and older recordings certainly were not mastered with the ReClock like precision, hence reproduction based on ultraprecise clock is no good.

[leeperry]

ok, I'll try again tomorrow.

try Lilith, it sounds great I think in ASIO...different from Reclock, but not worse.

[leeperry]

there's a newer version: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6403206-post91.html

OMG: this player is amazing, and it does gapless too :rock:

it also supports WASAPI, and you can set it to play from RAM.

Reclock in comparison sounds edgy and "digitis", uLilith + ASIO4ALL sounds analog to death...very impressive.

PS: it even seems to do gapless on mp3..wow

[VPhile jr.]

Looks as we are starting to spread new virus here, rolling players.. hha seriously, I'll give it a try ;)
But it's not minimalistic aka headless - I learned to love recently - decapitated players, lol

--
It won't load, I assume from japanes readme, it wants me to install this additional virus:

Microsoft Visual C++ 2008 SP1 ランタイム (x86 / 32bit OS 用)
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=A5C84275-3B97-4AB7-A40D-3802B2AF5FC2&displaylang=ja
or this one??:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?displaylang=en&FamilyID=a5c84275-3b97-4ab7-a40d-3802b2af5fc2
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/results.aspx?pocId=&freetext=Visual%20C%2b%2b%202008%20SP1%20&DisplayLang=en

--
-ok just plugging the common sense (used later one 2008/09/16) inst. package..
-now it works..

-bonzai like GUI but takes 20% system resources, minimized 0%, .. , but CPU still fluctuates in ~20% spikes during tracks even on mem buffer and minimized (very naughty - bad boy player!!), smooth headless wannabee? Certainly it is NOT the real deal..

-its default ASIO4ALL settings were: latency in/out 32, buffer size 512, hw buffer uncheck, kernel buffer 2, both resample and force uncheck; all changed to my traditional setup hehe..

-btw. hm it can't do basic 128k internet streams (or didn't find a way to it yet)..
--

first A-B: very different sound (fluid), some freq. cleaner than ReClock, and not as dynamic/uberclocked - slow river/slow motion (edit: "vinyl sound") - almost underclocked (could be bad on some tracks though - tends to mush vocals & some intstruments), I'd position it halfway between Andy's and ReClock at the moment, perhaps slightly above these two (when above issues are resolved - edit: realtime priority & mem buffer & asio tweaks helped a bit)..

=> looks as some of these issues are likely confined to this particular PC (only bare x86 instructions), will try my other PCs/setups with modern cpu instruction sets (SSE2 and above downloads available) later.. http://www.project9k.jp/download/uLilith/
--
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Massive tweaking orgies and A-Bs are about to commence:
--------------------------------------------------------

=> provisional results => too much vinyl cream & honey sprayed around (un~natural/DSP like forced) =>
(perhaps this feature /ugly worm/ might turn into butterfly on highend audio card, don't know, pretty much doubt it..)

=> hm, my best CDs where you can previously count every teeth of the vocalist are now mushy like from synthetic honey warehouse - no good! You are french you suppose to know how *Tricatel's factory looks from inside, right?

==> Andy's player is ever so more neutral to my liking/ears as of now..

=> just for the kick will try loudspeaker setup (my estimate is the honey blur will be forced even more)

-
*However, comparisons aside, Julien Guiomar remains to be among my favourite french actors hah

[leeperry]

well, I dunno wth this player does....but it sounds as vynil as you could possibly get! Reclock is a no-go in comparison, it sounds like Burson does........good :D

very thick bass, creamy mids and non-shrill trebles... + a very wide "holographic" SS.

ok I'm getting the musiland at the post office :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

Well, I'm not bashing this nice player, it deserves to be catapulted in the top league, no question about it. However, I'm bit worried that this massive liquid vinyl sound has been forced down quite aggresively by the devs as requested feature/spec, I don't hear/believe it's just natural occurance..

Good luck with picking up your parcel, beware of the street mob, Musiland is hot commodity these days.. :D

---

Edit: After the first round of tests the dust and placebo effects settled down (see the review #435),
so my list of recommended players according to SQ (on XP machines) is as follows in top down order:
(no priority given due to add. features: capability/lack off to online streams, gapless, stability, ..)

--
[ASIO4ALL/ASIO:] 1. Andy's headless (StealthAudioPlayer 0.1.1) / 2. SqueezeSlave headless (linux mplayer core) / 3. uLilith
--
[Dsound (kmixer "bypass" tweaks):] .. / .. / 2-3. MPC-HC^ReClock upsampling / 4. SMPlayer (linux mplayer core) / 5. VLC
--
.

[leeperry]

well, the musiland really kills w/ uLilith 8)

very detailed yet not shrill, bass is up the roof, mids are very creamy as usual..me like :D

[VPhile jr.]

Btw. is there any practical use/benefit of this ACPI timing settings for other players (I mean not exclusively for ReClock) ??:
Also, is it exclusively multi-processor thingy?

/NOEXECUTE=ALWAYSOFF /FASTDETECT /USEPMTIMER /NODEBUG /TIMERES=9766
for boot.ini

as appeared here and few other audio-philic threads on the internents:
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=21817
http://smallvoid.com/article/winnt-boot-ini.html

more detials in The Art of Building Computer Transport: http://photos.imageevent.com/cics/v03theartofbuildingcomputertrnsp/The%20art%20of%20building%20Computer%20Transports% 20v0.3.pdf
Warning: read twice - includes hard core settings
--

very detailed yet not shrill, bass is up the roof, mids are *very creamy as usual..me like

May I ask you what is your aprox. age category, you are probably aware of the rapid deterioration of human hearing/sensitivity after the age of 35-40, no pun intended, myself rapidly approching that stage..

-
* that just disqualifies uLilith for me (unless my setup was somehow kinked), read my updated review/findings above

[leeperry]

the shorter the timer resolution, the faster a laptop battery will flat out...I think the default value is a compromise between energy consumption and system snapiness.

[leeperry]

yes, I know that PDF...great stuff!

I also love "Win32PrioritySeparation", drastic I tell you :D

[VPhile jr.]

-> omg just running a version of that two batch system via -process.exe (killing bloatware & win UI/system set on low priority in background, player put forward and real time during playback, restore afterwards) as described towards the end of that .pdf for foo[L]bar, but I'm running it on SqueezeSlave instead, hah.. I was aware about this tutorial, but always did it manually, batch system is much more efficient, but it takes some time to set it up properly.

SQ improved greatly (in terms fluidness), and few more hacks/tweaks to go :bowdown:

PS what is funny though is that everything is shut down,
but that little audiophilic bugger volumouse (on screen GUI and commands) is still operational => multi-lol

PS2 what I found out is that antivirus seems non-cooperative with process.exe forcing upon him priorities, suspend etc. I know this is to be expected (antivirus ought to be bulletproof), but in practical terms it means either living with him, eventhough on standby at normal priority during playback or complete uninstall, so this is not optimal. Clearly a dedicated machine, which could be tweaked to the WinOS supression extreme (and with no prior antivirus install) is needed, also because of the more hard-core tweaks in the pipeline..

[leeperry]

hehe, looks like you've opened Pandora's box :D

anyway, I like the very forward and clear sound of Reclock/KS for movies...and the analog sound of uLilith+ASIO4ALL for music(Reclock's too bright and less euphonic IMHO), so I'm quite set so far :agree:

[VPhile jr.]

So, what are the first impressions from Musiland 02 - I assume that this new precision clock mode update can be downloaded for it as well, right?

[leeperry]

So, what are the first impressions from Musiland 02 - I assume that this new precision clock mode update can be downloaded for it as well, right?
it's up for sale if you like: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f43/fs-musiland-monitor-02-us-eu-472947/#post6407373

yes, it's compatible w/ the precision mode.

[VPhile jr.]

Selling just one hour old equipment, that's a bold act of dedicated audiophilism, so why didn't your rather sell/switch the headphones for higher ohmpt?

Btw. life can sometime suck indeed, as of last night my mplayer is no longer decoding-transcoding those oggflac streams for SqueezeSlave, nobody knows why, eh, so no more CD quality radio for me, grr.. It went titsup even before the hardcore tweaks with win UI/system, mysterioso..

[leeperry]

why didn't your rather sell/switch the headphones
http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/the%20este.gif

[leeperry]

you know what..I think I'm gonna run Dogbert's drivers in optical S/PDIF to this thing: http://www.tcelectronic.com/bmc-2.asp

I've read many reviews where ppl said that the headamp is mind blowing.

it can be had for USD350 shipped...HLLY won't be getting my money :p

[VPhile jr.]

Hm, for this price the specs sound interesting, 3x digital inputs, dB level monitoring, jitter supression thingy taken from their high end products, big volume knob, ext. power, .. but as they put it one review, this is basically one big volume box.

What's that reclocking business on these inputs, the extreme right button is labeled "x2", does it mean 2x 44.1 (88.2kHz) and 2x 48 (96kHz) capability? If that's correct, fine you have got reclocking in a standalone box (but your are stuck with it), on the other hand the pc/htpc software and hardware can/will evolve over time..

Now, the question remains, how good in jitter terms is your digital audio chain, those CMI chip/PCI cards are good, but perhaps you can feed that box with something better in the future. SPDIF sucks, I'd prefer something with I2S input, at least theoretical option.

[leeperry]

it's just a visual indicator...44.1/48 or 88.2/96 input, no resampling as far as I can tell!

well coax is much better jitter-wise than optical, but my headphones are very sensitive and pick up groundloop hum and interferences like there's no tomorrow.

they also have a cheaper firewire version apparently: http://www.tcelectronic.com/desktopkonnekt6features.asp

I would prolly not use the headphones out, but feed it to a Burson HA-160 anyway 8)

[leeperry]

ah well, I want the ticking groundloop to stop...firewire ain't gonna cut it: http://www.mlancentral.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=6&Board=mLAN&Number=440443&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/101204-building-psu-external-firewire-soundcard.html
The firewire optical isolator is basically optical isolation for firewire device. So there is no ground loop flowing between your soundcard and the PC (PC ground is extremely dirty).

[leeperry]

ok, change of plans! I've read some RMAA measurements for the TC Konnekt 6, and they stink!

I'm getting these two(brand new) for 150 EUR shipped:

http://www.audiophileproducts.com/spitfire
http://www.audiophileproducts.com/supplier

I will roll the stock LM4562NA LPF opamp for two AD797BR 8)

and if that sucks, I'll sell it w/ a profit on head-fi and get a V-DAC...that also has a rollable LM4562, so it'll also get the AD797 treatment.

life's so simple sometimes :agree:

[leeperry]

here's a more or less final english resource file for uLilith...the GUI is still in enjlish, but now the menus make a lot more sense.

PS: it's a bummer that no windows volume control works in S/PDIF, but you can set hotkeys in uLilith, even if it's in the tasktray only...so I can assign it to the Griffin, so handy :)

I wish I could assign the same hotkeys for Reclock volume...but you cannot set hotkeys for ffdshow and Reclock doesn't support volume control, so I guess I'm SOL..

PPS: this card might be the perfect transport: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120531662189

it's got 2 discrete clocks for 44.1/48 like the M2Tech Hiface, bitmatched KS/WASAPI, forbids SRC, very stable and it does PCM24...most cards don't and only do PCM16/PCM32

PPPS: this one looks nice too, but no KS on XP...ASIO4ALL works, though: http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-to-Spdif-Toslink-and-I2S-Converter-for-DAC_W0QQitemZ290395921828

[leeperry]

m2tech boast about spot-on sample rates at the end of that white paper: http://www.m2tech.biz/public/pdf/White%20Paper%20on%20hiFace.pdf

and even the musiland in "high precision" mode fail blatantly: http://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/reading-sample-rate

the idea that I've never listened to my music at the right pitch is starting to grow on me, making me simultaneously sad and upsethttp://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/ideenoire.gif

[leeperry]

OK, I've ordered the Musiland 01 USD second hand for a very good price :agree:

It outputs ever so slightly out of tune sample rates(prolly inaudible to the human ear :confused:) but I've got a hard time justifying the $150 for the Hiface...besides its drivers look pretty wonky, M2tech are working on their next "Evo" interface and don't seem to give a damn about the Hiface anymore :mad:

I'll use this adapter to plug the Musiland directly onto my DAC...no cable!

http://www.euroxhid.com/picture_library/RCA/RCA2Mx2.jpg

[leeperry]

hehe, I see Patrick82 says that RCA adaptors "beat all the reference interconnects in the whole world": http://www.exeres.org/audio.htm

got to be onto something using this to plug the 01USD straight into my DAC :D

[Qaq]

$29 for pair??? And shipping was...? They should be platinum. And of course its as better as shorter.

[leeperry]

you obviously don't know Patrick82:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UhQK0AdWSk


http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/412260/virtual-dynamics-judge-power-cable-arrived/60#post_5484271

[mitchmalibu]

Another off topic subject (that's what this thread is about !)

Did anyone notice the new option in the 256 nvidia drivers line ? "content type reported to the display" in the Adjust*Desktop*Color*Settings page. Couldn't find anything online about what it does but from what I could see by playing with it, Nvidia finally added a 0-255 / 16-235 switch.

Anyone has more info on that ?