ReClock chitchat [Archive]

leeperry

21st October 2008, 20:42

ahhhhhhhhhh Vista is definitely the promised land...thank you m$ for Aero & HPET :bowdown:

I had to raise my soundcard latency one notch as I was getting very slight glitches.....I guess KS already has a much lower latency than MME in the first place.

I just watched a 136' movie, which was butter smooth from start to the end(Hidalgo, with lots of running horses).

after 120' Reclock had to resync itself....doing some slight scratches & pops, so I've raised the PCM max latency from 20% to 25, and if that's not enough I'll try 30.

anyway, if the only problem now is that Reclock does some glitches for one second every 2 hours.........I think I can live w/ that :D

the movie started & ended at 0.17ppm, and it was definitely smoother than XP.

Jong

22nd October 2008, 07:15

after 120' Reclock had to resync itself....doing some slight scratches & pops, so I've raised the PCM max latency from 20% to 25, and if that's not enough I'll try 30.

anyway, if the only problem now is that Reclock does some glitches for one second every 2 hours.........I think I can live w/ that :DIs that really you Max??? Or has someone hijacked your account? Or maybe alien abduction?

What is your sound pre-buffer size? 30% with a 500ms buffer means a lipsync error of up to 150ms or nearly 4 frames. That is horrible. But maybe you have taken the pre-buffer right down?

Either way, after the first couple of minutes my audio desync settles @0ms or 1ms. Occasionally it may pop up to 4ms or so. Never comes anywhere near the latency limit. Something is strange.

leeperry

22nd October 2008, 07:43

well I've got the nasty habit of constantly watching ppl mouths to make sure that the A/V sync is right....and it was :eek:

I had the stock 500ms/20% settings, and after 2H straight Reclock had to resync and did some clicks & pops for one second.

at this point, I've NEVER managed to get a movie longer than 90' to play smoothly on XP(whatever EVR/VMR9/HR) :bang:

I dunno why Reclock got nuts after 2H, maybe coz I set my soundcard latency a big higher(from 128 to 256.... samples I think) ?

I'll try to play around w/ the buffer size, maybe trying 400ms ? I know older versions of reclock were set to 400.

anyway, I'm quite impressed......it was butter smooth for 136' in a row.

quite a performance...and when I reboot, Reclock goes straight back to 0.17ppm!

what "audio desync" are you talking about ? that's an indication in Reclock's panel ?

Jong

22nd October 2008, 07:51

what "audio desync" are you talking about ? that's an indication in Reclock's panel ?It is called "sync" in Reclock properties screen and in the log e.g.wave audio sync=1 wait=3028 Y=77033 Ud=76800 size=24576 Ti=632 e=-233 U=-17 freq=47874(+1)It is the number of millseconds the audio leads or trails the video. If it hits your latency threshold (100ms default with 500ms/20% settings) that is when a sample is dropped.

When I start a video it typically peaks @ about 85ms, which is ugly, but drops over the first minute or so to 0-3ms (my 0-1ms statement before was a bit optimistic!). It occasional peaks @5ms after. It should never get close to the 100ms needed to drop a sample and if it is the lip sync will be horrible regardless of any clicks and pops. Unless that is it is a one sample "glitch" but anyway that should not be happening.

Jong

22nd October 2008, 08:00

Jong

22nd October 2008, 08:02

Isn't it ironic that now we have a "chitchat" thread, we seem to be talking almost exclusively about Reclock!

leeperry

22nd October 2008, 08:06

ok got it http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/d4buff.gif, you always discover new stuff w/ Reclock :D

and what is "samp" close to it ?

humm, I guess I should play around with the prebuffer size then instead..I'll try 400ms.

the movie had a 1.5mbit DTS track embedded in a MKV, w/ HMS/KMP in 48.000Hz & "excellent" resampling

now I need to find another +2H movie, and I'll try b19 as you said it was a pretty good build ;)

I just restarted XP, and Reclock is at 6ppm....I think I will permanently migrate to Vista anytime soon :D

Jong

22nd October 2008, 08:08

I dunno why Reclock got nuts after 2H, maybe coz I set my soundcard latency a big higher(from 128 to 256.... samples I think) Sounds like you may have a "rogue process". Have you checked you do not have anything that might be doing something, e.g. updating itself, at the time you experienced your glitch?

leeperry

22nd October 2008, 08:09

Are you doing any low level tinkering with "quantums" or similar on Vista? I eventually removed "timeres" from my boot.ini. I was not sure but I came to the conclusion that some players anticipate having a certain amount of time at the processor in a go and if you reduce the timeslice sometimes they don't get all they need doing done.
I've searched extensively through google, HPET renders all this tweaks useless as I understand it.

the granularity is way higher than anything XP will ever be able to reach.

Isn't it ironic that now we have a "chitchat" thread, we seem to be talking almost exclusively about Reclock!
well the other thread is for Reclock bugs, not to clutter James reading time as I see it.
we prolly should have done it a while ago ;)

leeperry

22nd October 2008, 08:13

Sounds like you may have a "rogue process". Have you checked you do not have anything that might be doing something, e.g. updating itself, at the time you experienced your glitch?
well I set them all in low prio on cores 1/2, and KMP in high prio on cores 0/1/2/3

I've disabled all the stuff hidden in the shell w/ AUTORUNS and SHEXVIEW, and I've got the minimum system services running.

no pagefile either.

well I let Reclock learn its timings with the soundcard latency set to 128 samples, and because it was glitching in KS I had to set it to 256...that might also be the reason..

gotta run more tests, but so far me likes it a lot :D

hopefully Haali could force 3x buffering in HR, he told me that he would have some time to work on HR this week probably :)

Jong

22nd October 2008, 08:16

and what is "samp" close to it ?

humm, I guess I should play around with the prebuffer size then instead..I'll try 400ms.I believe "samp" is just the size of an audio sample, "packet" if you will - 1 sample per frame = ~43ms @23.976fps. I know the maths doesn't quite work out; Not sure why. They seem to think there are 1024ms in a second or something?!

In my experience dropping the pre-buffer size just worsens audio drops. I tried dropping mine to 200ms with a 50% PCM latency (so still 100ms) and I get constant drops. It is horrible. 400ms @25% seems to work fine, but it hardly seems worth the effort to mess with it.

leeperry

22nd October 2008, 10:44

OK I've just let Vista learn the timings w/ b19 so I can simply pop a disc this evening and play it....everything looks fine

I've also set Reclock to D3D, as I don't wanna have anything to do w/ DDR and GDI on Aero anymore :D

Jong

22nd October 2008, 14:15

I think even 400ms was giving problems with PDVD, which starts really badly.

I have now gone to 500ms/60%. A low latency is really pointless as all it does is substitute crackles and pops for lipsync problems. If when playing video you have high latency/audio desync you need to fix the cause, not just force Reclock to drop audio.

A high latency figure stops lots of pops and crackles when PDVD starts blu-ray playback. Yes for the first minute lipsync sucks, but frankly that is better. Once running audio sync drops to 0-3ms, like MPC-HC, so all is fine.

leeperry

22nd October 2008, 15:17

hummm, didn't you just say that I shouldn't raise it >20% a few hours ago ? :D

you're talking about the soundcard's latency, or Reclock's prebuffer ? :o

when I seek, Reclock does cracks&pops to resync the resampling I guess.

that's what happened yesterday after playing HIDALGO for 2H straight.....not sure wth happened :confused:

I will try to find a +2H movie to watch this evening, but I really enjoy not having to seek a zillion times to catch the damn VSYNC train properly anymore :p

Jong

22nd October 2008, 17:09

hummm, didn't you just say that I shouldn't raise it >20% a few hours ago ? :DFair comment!

But what I was trying to say is if you are doing it because you are getting latencies like that after the first minute or so you have a more serious issue to fix. If you are doing it because it reduces pops and crackles in the first few seconds it makes sense.

leeperry

22nd October 2008, 20:38

hehe, ok ;)

well I got a HDTV copy of Inside Man w/ 1.5mbit DTS, and I remember that I had to raise it to 30% to avoid constant glitches every 10" / 1.7b4

it didn't impair w/ the AV sync, it was like the frames were too big or sumthing

just like Gabest MKV splitter that does random silences on 1.5mbit DTS

anyway, today's test was useless..........I fell asleep in the middle of the movie :D

leeperry

23rd October 2008, 05:27

hey buddy, did you ever play around w/ ZP ?

I'm getting sick of KMP randomly freezing on shutdown, and apparently it happens on some systems.........because of ffdshow :mad:

they advise to use the internal decoders, but well you can't set profiles and there's no avisynth filter.

and because KMP has stolen code from MPC & ffd, noone wants to support it properly on doom9.

anyway, I've read on Haali's website that ZP was natively supported...

and it's FS OSD is apparently D3D(it also disables HR OSD) :

http://pix.nofrag.com/7/f/8/88c6a09ccee7e1e1adccd9010ad9btt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/7/f/8/88c6a09ccee7e1e1adccd9010ad9b.html)

I've tried to seek many times on XP, and it seems to enforce the VSYNC pretty impressively :eek:

a wild guess would be that it's got a much better presenter than MPC/KMP..

ashlar

23rd October 2008, 09:37

and it's FS OSD is apparently D3D(it also disables HR OSD)? Where did you read this?

I'm using ZP, with VRM7, but I've never thought that the FS OSD was done in D3D, even more so considering that when you use the D3D Exclusive mode you lose all forms of OSD (even worse than MPC-HC).

Jong

23rd October 2008, 10:14

I have to say I am reluctant to pay for a third player! I have already coughed up for:

- TT for it's great D3D exclusive mode. Used for SD and HD mkv with only one chapter/language/subtitle e.g. TV
- PowerDVD used for Blu-ray discs

MPC-HC is OK for my HD disc rips and will hopefully improve.

leeperry

23rd October 2008, 11:17

I'm using ZP, with VRM7, but I've never thought that the FS OSD was done in D3D
well the FS transport bar is definitely D3D I think.
and it seems to catch the VSYNC really well.
I'll try on Vista later today, as everything is D3D on this OS 8)
MPC-HC is OK for my HD disc rips and will hopefully improve.
true, but I'm sick of the win95 GUI :D
how hard can it be to add a nice one...

Jong

23rd October 2008, 11:21

leeperry

23rd October 2008, 11:47

Well I only use full screen exclusive and I turn off all the staus/info bars etc. No clutter. So when it starts up it has a simple black box in the middle of the screen and then it switches to full screen. I just need them to significantly improve the D3D OSD.
oh yeah, the terrible blue OSD :D

well ZP D3D transport bar looks great, catches the VSYNC really well, and it doesn't freeze on shutdown for me(unlike MPC/KMP)

think we got a winner :bowdown:

leeperry

23rd October 2008, 21:57

hey Jong, that's ZP6 in VMR9 Renderless :

http://pix.nofrag.com/a/9/f/a38224b809ec3bbc5c5ebf64c2dddtt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/a/9/f/a38224b809ec3bbc5c5ebf64c2ddd.html)

you can see that the VSYNC remains at the very top, and doesn't move at all :eek:

same goes for MPC HC in custom VMR9, but in KMP it's constantly moving.

I'm sure that might explain why PDVD is so smooth for you....apparently when set properly, VMR9 renderless can slave to the VSYNC really well!

using HR on XP is hopeless, but I haven't been too lucky w/ Reclock in KS on Vista either(random clicks & pops), so ZP6 in VMR9 on XP seems like a good option to me :agree:

I'll try a 2H movie, to see whether it craps out after 60' like MPC HC :rolleyes:

PS : I will also try to force 3xbuffer in MPC HC w/ custom VMR9(as it support PS scripts, and that's a great CPU saver for gamut conversions)

PS2 : humm when I force 3xbuffer in MPC HC, it reverts from custom VMR9 to Overlay...I tried to uncheck "loadlibrary", still a no go...

leeperry

23rd October 2008, 23:10

I'm using ZP, with VRM7, but I've never thought that the FS OSD was done in D3D, even more so considering that when you use the D3D Exclusive mode you lose all forms of OSD (even worse than MPC-HC).
in VMR7, Reclock's VSYNC indicator goes up to the top and vanishes ?! R.I.P. :D

how do you set ZP for exclusive mode please ?
but well, if it's even worse than MPC HC, that might be worthless :o

PS: goddamn the Scrolling_23.976fps.mkv tearing test video from Seb.26 is as smooth as can be..

http://pix.nofrag.com/6/f/9/bfd7cfd2fc741df34fa848a15202btt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/6/f/9/bfd7cfd2fc741df34fa848a15202b.html)

ashlar

24th October 2008, 04:12

in VMR7, Reclock's VSYNC indicator goes up to the top and vanishes ?! R.I.P. :DThat maybe happens to you. Not in my case :phow do you set ZP for exclusive mode please ?It should be under Video and Subtitles/Use Exclusive Fullscreen with VMR9 Renderless mode.

leeperry

24th October 2008, 07:05

That maybe happens to you. Not in my case :pIt should be under Video and Subtitles/Use Exclusive Fullscreen with VMR9 Renderless mode.
oh right, there's so many options in this player.

well nothing happens when I select it.

I got a box at the bottom left that says "Zoom Player", and that's about it..

Jong

24th October 2008, 07:11

I've also tried to force triple buffering on MPC HC on XP, but that doesn't work in custom VMR9/EVR...it reverts to Overlay.I don't understand this. What do you mean by "custom VMR9"? Forcing triple buffering works fine here with VMR9 renderless and D3D (at least it says it has done it, whether it makes a difference I have yet to decide!

leeperry

24th October 2008, 07:17

I don't understand this. What do you mean by "custom VMR9"? Forcing triple buffering works fine here with VMR9 renderless and D3D (at least it says it has done it, whether it makes a difference I have yet to decide!
well, in non D3DFS mode that is(custom EVR & VMR9, where you can specify PS scripts)
Can confirm ZP6 is working fine with vista32.
[...]
Jesus - ZP6 is so much faster then MPC HC - its like I've got a new pc!
yeah I think KMP is quite bloated coz it's a MPC hack, at least ZP6 is fast!

in the "Install Center" after the install you mean ?
when it's downloading from their website ?

I haven't setup my fwall and stuff on Vista yet..

I've also tried to force triple buffering on MPC HC on XP, but that doesn't work in custom VMR9/EVR...it reverts to Overlay.
You only did it for regular EVR on Vista, right ?

in the meantime, I'll try to play a 2H movie in ZP6/VMR9 on XP....maybe it won't crap out after 60' like MPC does, and then I won't need to upgrade to Vista no more :disagree:

xxxstarmanxxx

24th October 2008, 07:34

well, in non D3DFS mode that is(custom EVR & VMR9, where you can specify PS scripts)

yeah I think KMP is quite bloated coz it's a MPC hack, at least ZP6 is fast!

in the "Install Center" after the install you mean ?
when it's downloading from their website ?

I haven't setup my fwall and stuff on Vista yet..

I've also tried to force triple buffering on MPC HC on XP, but that doesn't work in custom VMR9/EVR...it reverts to Overlay.
You only did it for regular EVR on Vista, right ?

in the meantime, I'll try to play a 2H movie in ZP6/VMR9 on XP....maybe it won't crap out after 60' like MPC does, and then I won't need to upgrade to Vista no more :disagree:

well......my version of zp6 MAX didnt come from their website......if you get my drift.....! Standalone install has a check box for haali install. I 1st installed this without haali installing through ZP6 and it failed with a ds/splitter error even though I had its internal splitter set as default for Matroska AND haali splitter was already on the system - so i uninstalled it and reinstalled it and allowed it to install haali and all was fine - I just had to set up a codec for use with .h264.

Yup - I only managed triple buffering on EVR not EVR Cus.

I'm quite taken back by ZP6 - I havent messed with this player since my day of ripping DVD's to Xvid's - Its really developed itself.........and now I hear its no longer being developed????? MAD.

If it helps - I can post more setup/config screenshots for ya - incase there's just a setting here or there a miss.

Justin

Jong

24th October 2008, 07:39

well, in non D3DFS mode that is(custom EVR & VMR9, where you can specify PS scripts):confused: Not here.

leeperry

24th October 2008, 07:52

I'm quite taken back by ZP6 - I havent messed with this player since my day of ripping DVD's to Xvid's - Its really developed itself.........and now I hear its no longer being developed????? MAD.

If it helps - I can post more setup/config screenshots for ya - incase there's just a setting here or there a miss.
ok cool, thanks!

development looks pretty active on their forum, where did you hear that it had stopped :confused:

:confused: Not here.
oh well, ZP6 is the way to go I think.
if renderless VMR9 works fine for 2H on XP, that'll save me some hassle upgrading to Vista.

if it craps out like MPC, Vista's VSYNC enforcement should fix it

I guess starman can watch a 2H on Vista w/ EVR w/o a itch ?! :D

Jong

24th October 2008, 08:01

oh well, ZP6 is the way to go I think.
if renderless VMR9 works fine for 2H on XP, that'll save me some hassle upgrading to Vista.I will wait with interest to hear how it goes.

ashlar

24th October 2008, 09:47

oh right, there's so many options in this player.

well nothing happens when I select it.

I got a box at the bottom left that says "Zoom Player", and that's about it..Huh? :confused: Could you post a screenshot? I don't get what you're saying. :)

leeperry

24th October 2008, 09:50

I will wait with interest to hear how it goes.
you won't have to wait that long :D

after only 20', it started drifting and the tearing test suffered.

I will try on Vista now.

leeperry

24th October 2008, 09:58

Huh? :confused: Could you post a screenshot? I don't get what you're saying. :)
http://pix.nofrag.com/e/0/b/6f2a13e1dfa5208a7a8a4be7515f8.png

xxxstarmanxxx

24th October 2008, 10:50

Leeperry - you got PM m8!

I must agree ZP MAX is definately the way to go for HTPC - the only thing its missing for me is rendering in custom EVR mode - but I have now decided to only work with 1080p material as I guess i'm just getting picky about adding sharpening filters to my viewing.

I'm also getting very used to using coreavc instead of harnessing HA from the GPU using another decoder as some of my 'encodes' break L4.1 AVC and therefore dont use the GPU on my ati hd2600xt.

I guess that was also another thing I was picky about - I didnt like using core when I could use GPU HA - but I have come to respect the codec more in my pursuit of ultra smooth home cinema - SO for me - My setup will remain as follows until the next discovery..............lol

ZP 6 MAX - EVR - Reclock b19.

All the best

Justin

leeperry

24th October 2008, 12:04

thanks buddy!

well the test I ran that crapped out after 20' was in "VMR9 Renderless" w/ Reclock b14 on XP SP3....even ZP tells you "this is not stable under some circumstances" when you select it, at least it's not b/s you :agree:

so I've run STEALTH through "VMR9 Windowsless", and the VSYNC remained dead on at this position :

http://pix.nofrag.com/1/f/3/223cb23883ffe06e656824b6f5575tt.jpg (http://pix.nofrag.com/1/f/3/223cb23883ffe06e656824b6f5575.html)

at some point it was moving up or down for 2 pixels very slowly, but I haven't seen any ill effect on the tearing test.

*SO* syncing VMR9 to the VSYNC for 2H on XP is entirely possible I'd say :agree:

I don't recall the diff between VMR9 window/renderless, but I'll google up!

leeperry

24th October 2008, 12:25

http://forum.inmatrix.com/index.php?showtopic=1653&st=20

Blight is ZP's coder 8)

leeperry

24th October 2008, 15:58

just ran another test, and 90' later the VSYNC was still at the same location moving very slowly one pixel up/one pixel down.

no ill effect on tearing, and I got the whole shobang in ffdshow/avisynth MT on the 4 cores of my Q6600 :D

who says MPC simply has a lousy VMR9 presenter :D

leeperry

26th October 2008, 05:28

That maybe happens to you. Not in my case :p
well I prefer VMR7 over VMR9 because it doesn't apply any PS sharpen script(dunno whether the ATi drivers are messing w/ my patience, or if it's actually built-in)

anyhow, in VMR9 the VSYNC usually synchronises on the very top line of the actual video.

in VMR7 it seems to synchronise in the top blanking most of the time.....I guess it's wiser as there can't possibly be any tearing, but that means I can't "see" it...

but it looks just as stable as VMR9, so that's cool.

I've also tried Overlay, but it doesn't support LUT's so I can't use it on my CRT..

anyway Reclock was meant to be used w/ these official renderers apparently, using anything else is begging for problems(my buddies on HCFR now use HR on Vista I think)..

leeperry

24th November 2008, 15:56

hey Jong, prolly better to speak in here...that will not clutter the original topic and avoid trolls altogether :D

:bang: Last time I was active on the pstrip forum we were all assuming the pstrip camera and Reclock were the most accurate. It is enough to drive you mad. Ah.... maybe that explains it.
well the pstrip camera has always been undocumented because Rik has always been telling me that the measures it made were not accurate.
you can filter Rik's msg from my first post there(with the HD2600 48Hz prob), he was very clear about it.

he's got an oscilloscope and knows his sh*t I guess.

Also James has been clear that getting 3 figures after the digit was already a pretty impressive performance to do through DX..

anyway I'm discussing with Haali as we speak 8)

ashlar

24th November 2008, 17:41

leeperry, still on XP or you switched to Vista? Are you now back trying to use Haali Renderer?

Jong

24th November 2008, 18:46

hey Jong, prolly better to speak in here...that will not clutter the original topic and avoid trolls altogether :D

well the pstrip camera has always been undocumented because Rik has always been telling me that the measures it made were not accurate.
you can filter Rik's msg from my first post there(with the HD2600 48Hz prob), he was very clear about it.Yeah, I find it all a bit unhelpful to tell us that we need an oscilloscope to get 100% accuracy. We all know that (or should). The questions have always been "which of the software methods is most accurate" and "how accurate do they have to be to get perfectly smooth playback"?

So maybe the answer to the former is CCC? Still not sure.

When it comes to the latter, James tells us that for smooth output from the PC using Reclock it does not have to be accurate at all - Reclock makes all the necessary adjustments. But we are still left with the display device - how close to the internally supported rate of the display (as measured by its clock) does the source need to be for perfect, judderless playback? I know for many PAL TVs 48Hz is not close enough, even though they may accept it, what about 50.002Hz? If it is good enough fine, if not what reference do we use to set our timings?

Jong

24th November 2008, 19:12

Mark_A_W

24th November 2008, 20:51

This talks about the issue:

http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/video-frame-display-synchronization

I have a feeling that with Reclock you do NOT want to force vsync. I may be wrong but I think I get the occasional "bad vsync" issues you describe, fixed by a fresh seek, when vsync is forced. They may well be caused by what is described in Fig 5. It's what we talked about some time ago with Haali. Things go wrong when you are very close, but not quite close enough to the right refresh rate. Unless you are very unlucky at the start, all is fine for a while, and then you hit the point where all hell breaks loose, as in Fig 5.

You remember that "little wobble" in the MPC-HC jitter you always hated when selecting VMR9 D3D. It may well be that this is exactly the kind of "best fit refresh cycle for each frame " described, i.e a positive feature designed to avoid the problems illustrated when slightly imperfect clocks synchronise in the wrong part of the refresh cycle as in Fig 5.

This bit from the article is telling:

"Therefore, it is best to have a refresh rate that exactly matches the display rate. If this were the case, then each and every frame could be drawn at its actual frame time."

And it's one reason I use true multisyncing CRT based displays (24" monitor and CRT projector running off a profession video splitter).

My displays do not have internal refresh rates, they sync to the signal.

Jong

25th November 2008, 05:40

The following holds for the RADEON Cards - but I see no reason why it shouldnt be the same for other brands:

You cannot really rely on Reclock's refresh rate calculation. Its based on DX and thats possibly flawed from the start in this respect. Powerstrips display of the refresh rate was for a long time not precise enough (only 3 decimal digits, though a little more accurate than the reclock on-the-fly calculation) to get good results. I heard that might have changed in newer versions of powerstrip though.

Fact is: Of course using the displayed refreshrates is better than nothing, but with correctly calculated timings you get no drop/repeats (that is except for the obligatory one at the start of playback) for 4-5 hours.

So less drop/repeats with the displayed refreshrate: YES. But is near the possible optimum: No.

Unfortunatly its not as easy as to add 0.00x or substract 0.00y because it depends on resoluton/refreshrate/quartzdividers as well as some other stuff. But people tell me that the new Powerstrip solves this problem once and for all as Rik implemented an precise timings search engine. I didn't try that yet, as i have my own program for that. But if he did it correct you shouldn
t worry what reclock displays, as long as you get no drops/repeats.

regards,
ZardozI have played with Rik's search engine. Unfortuantely, for me it juts spat out a lot of timings my TV would not accept. I don't think it has changed.

pstrip camera seems to agree with Reclock on the refresh rate. Obvious the camera now offers a lot more digits, but when rounded it comes out the same as Reclock. Getting these spot on do reduce s/pdif drops/repeats over the standard value shown in CCC or pstrip advanced timings, which for my display are typically 0.002 out with XP in "default timer mode" and 0.001 out usig "/USEPMTIMER". But I'm not sure this really tells us anything very useful. Of course it improves drops/repeats - Reclock THINKS that is the refresh rate and is using that to decide when to drop/repeat. But it could still be inaccurate and lead to problems with the display device.

Probably it is better to get the display rate right. I don't think I have ever noticed a single dropped AC3 packet in passthrough mode (unlike a single dropped AC3 packet created by Reclock, which does lead to pops and crackles, but that is another matter!).

ashlar

25th November 2008, 06:18

I'll never understand all the mistery surrounding Reclock and what exactly it does... 23.976 reported from players as 24.000 but that's just cosmetic, turn this on, leave that off... it's the single most "magical" piece of software that I know of.

As long as there's no full disclosure on its inner workings, I doubt that all this experimentation will go somewhere.

leeperry

25th November 2008, 07:50

Mark_A_W

25th November 2008, 08:07

leeperry

25th November 2008, 08:13

Leeperry, what player, renderer and Operating system are you using?

I'm testing ZP6, VRM9 Windowless (no V-sync in Reclock) on SP3 right now.

Vista was fantastic....until I enabled my second monitor and it went all jerky.
KMP/HR/XP SP3

at some point I tried ZP6 + VRM9 Windowless, but it wasn't as smooth as HR.
plus it would drop frames after a while, just like MPC
if I had Reclock's VSYNC indicator enabled, it was clear that randomly it would start going nuts after a while.
besides I found the jitter(the average interval between the frames) really poor...it looks way smoother w/ HR, and prolly w/ exclusive VMR9/EVR in MPC HC too.....but VMR9 does some ugly sharpening, and EVR some crazy EE.

I've finally managed to make totozero from HCFR agree with me on EVR doing crazy EE.

plus HR is soon to offer PS gamut conversion, I've got a few betas but it's not too functional yet....only a matter of time, hopefully :D

Jong

25th November 2008, 08:18

humm interesting link Jong!

yes I still run XP SP3, Aero on Vista makes HR hiccup constantly...and it shows.

from many ppl tests on HCFR, only D3D exclusive mode in MPC HC can be as smooth as HR.

but to me MPC has bad karma, so this is out of the question...besides I don't like the exclusive mode w/o GUI.

anyway, ogo has been constantly telling me that media players could drop frames after a while because they didn't sync with Reclock properly in the first place(basically what they explain in fig5)

Reclock will use its own "beat", but if it's not perfectly synced with the video renderer...at some point it will go bersek(reason why MPC/ZP6 will drop frames after 45/60' in non exclusive mode)

I use a CRT and a DLP pj that has a VSYNC option in its OSD, so luckily I don't have to bother about what the display likes/dislikes.

but as long as there won't be a video renderer fully synced w/ Reclock, we will suffer what is explained in fig5 I think.I think VMR9 D3D with vsync turned off (don't force in the graphics drivers!) is close to perfect. I think Haali may be broken due to its use of a buffer and its strict adherence to a stable beat rate - exactly the Fig.5 scenario - it works nicely until it drifts into that boundary region and then falls apart.

I know your initial experience was not so good, but Andrew of TheaterTek is still promising a version of TT that fully supports mkv internally, not just via DS graphs, including chapter points etc. That IMO will be the perfect D3D HD player, with its OSD fully supported in D3D mode.

leeperry

25th November 2008, 08:39

well I like KMP too much to bother using anything else...seamless playback is really great stuff :)

and VMR9 looks too sharp...does some ugly interaction with my Avisynth LimitedSharpenFaster() script :policeman:

I think VMR9 D3D with vsync turned off (don't force in the graphics drivers!) is close to perfect.
why would u wanna turn the VSYNC off in the graphic drivers ?
HR is forcing it anyway, and I guess any D3D mode does too.

Mark_A_W

25th November 2008, 08:47

VMR9 and VRM7 look identical.

Or are you scaling stuff? I watch 1920x1080 at 1920x1080i at 96hz.

The videocard does not scale.

Jong

25th November 2008, 09:31

well I like KMP too much to bother using anything else...seamless playback is really great stuff :)

and VMR9 looks too sharp...does some ugly interaction with my Avisynth LimitedSharpenFaster() script :policeman:

why would u wanna turn the VSYNC off in the graphic drivers ?
HR is forcing it anyway, and I guess any D3D mode does too.Actually I mixed up two things :o.

Yes, D3D forces vsync (at least I am pretty sure it does) but uses that "wobble" you see in MPC to avoid bad synchonisation between the "flip time" and "refresh time".

But, PDVD uses VMR9 renderless in non-D3D mode and THAT exhibits exactly what you describe for Haali if you force vsync in the graphics drivers - occasional horrible judder when you start playback at the wrong point in the vsync cycle and judder after an extended period of time. PDVD seems to do a perfectly adequate job of avoiding tearing by itself and using the graphics driver control panel to force vsync on it just messes things up. So, ignore what I am saying about vsync if you are not using PDVD or a non-D3D renderer. If it is not turning on vsync itself (and even maybe if it is) forced vsync will likely mess things up.

p.s. By they way I mean turn off "vsync FORCED on" or "off, unless the application requests it". I do not mean to "force vsync off, regardless of application". I suspect that would be very bad too!

p.p.s. I think it is inevitable that you may need to revisit any sharpening routine when changing renderers. That does not mean any one renderer is better/worse than another, but, yes, you may need more/less sharpening depending on the exact algorithm the renderer is using.

csundbom

25th November 2008, 09:45

I've always used VMR9 Windowless, but had terrible tearing with sending 1080/24p or 480/24p. Using the latest Nvidia drivers I tested Overlay, and it works much better. No tearing, all color transforms (YUV->RGB) work right for both SD and HD content. The overlay implementation also keeps levels where they should be, and doesn't do the TV->PC levels transform. I use native resolution, so no scaling by the renderer (720x480 for DVD and 1920x1080 for BD). If you're having problems, test the lowly Overlay renderer. Works fine with VSYNC tools too.

James

25th November 2008, 13:26

leeperry

25th November 2008, 14:11

Actually I mixed up two things.

Yes, D3D forces vsync (at least I am pretty sure it does) but uses that "wobble" you see in MPC to avoid bad synchonisation between the "flip time" and "refresh time".
anyway...I'm hearing ppl say that the nvidia cards give smoother results...thing is the PQ on the several 8600GT I tried was terrible(some ppl from HCFR tried the 9600GT and came to the same conclusion) :eek:

whatever in 5xBNC on my old iiyama CRT, or in DVI on my HC3100.

the upgrade to the ATi was like salvation, much better blacks and much sharper picture 8)

like they've witnessed here, apparently nvidia's cheating at these HQV tests and that completely ruins the PQ(even on the windows desktop) :
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=157368

Thing is I like the ATi PQ, but I'm tired of pulling the monkey's tail to get my HTPC working smoothly :D

so I'm gonna try some PCI-E Matrox card, apparently they offer the best 2D picture on the market...can't get any worse than ATi I guess :D

Mark_A_W

25th November 2008, 16:30

What are you talking about leeperry?

If you do everything in software (RGB conversion, decoding, even (ick) scaling), then the only thing the video card could do is tear.

Nivida and ATi would be identical - they are both passive unless you use DXVA or scale in the drivers.

leeperry

25th November 2008, 17:03

What are you talking about leeperry?
[...]
Nivida and ATi would be identical
well, did you compare both brands ?
I can assure you that they don't output the same PQ.

on the nvidia there's some sort of ugly EE, even on the desktop.

and the native contrast is much better on the ATi.

I'm far from being the only one who noticed that.

csundbom

25th November 2008, 17:21

well, did you compare both brands ?
I can assure you that they don't output the same PQ.
That's true.

I was using a ATI card for the longest time in my HTPC, and it had an issue with black level. It did not retain a proper video level when using VMR9 and YUV content, but insisted on transforming my video levels to PC levels, clamping black down to 0 and destroying my Blacker-than-Black bars. Very annoying.

I switched to an Nvidia card and the issue went away.

This is probably why you see report of "bad blacks" with Nvidia. The drivers behave differently. The ATI drivers assume you use a PC monitor for video content, and the Nvidia ones assume you use a television.

All these issues are avoided with a proper calibration of your video display, something you have to do if you want to compare apples to apples. In my case, I preferred a card that didn't muck with my video levels and followed the BT.601 and BT.709 video transform standards.

These things also change between driver versions, so once you've found something don't works, please don't update your drivers!

EDIT: This is with DVI digital out. With analog RGB, you may see issues caused by the DACs.

leeperry

25th November 2008, 17:27

of course I'm talking about RGB32 output from ffdshow, I don't trust video drivers as a principle ;)

the picture from the nvidia 8 serie is definitely softer than the ATi HD serie.

I heard it was still the same on the 9 serie, but prolly tomorrow I'll go borrow a 9500GT and see for myself on my own gear(19" CRT/DLP pj in DVI)

my hopes are pretty low, but I got the feeling that HR works a lot better on nvidia cards.......due to Haali having one :o

csundbom

25th November 2008, 17:41

I feed only native resolution to bypass scaling, and both 720x480 and 1920x1080 is equally sharp with both ATI and Nvidia cards.

Softness in your case is probably due to one of two things:

1. Poor scaling in the renderer, i.e. driver.
2. Inferior DAC if you're feeding RGB analog into your CRT PJ.

Sending 1280x768 desktop via DVI-D to the Mits should like equally sharp independent of card. Looking forward to the result of your testing!

leeperry

25th November 2008, 17:50

Sending 1280x768 desktop via DVI-D to the Mits should like equally sharp independent of card. Looking forward to the result of your testing!
well I can assure you that the 2 8600GT I tried(MSI/PNY) had a very soft picture both in VGA & DVI(native res, RGB32HQ from ffdshow).

also the black level was much worse on the nvidia(after calibration with Color.HCFR & a i1d2 sensor)

but prolly nvidia learned their lesson and improved the sharpness on the 9 serie ?

I heard it wasn't the case on the 9600GT, and maybe it was better on the 9500GT......but this card really sucks at games compared to my HD3850.

so maybe I'll end up grabbing a 9600GT and hope for the best :D

Mark_A_W

25th November 2008, 19:37

That's true.

I was using a ATI card for the longest time in my HTPC, and it had an issue with black level. It did not retain a proper video level when using VMR9 and YUV content, but insisted on transforming my video levels to PC levels, clamping black down to 0 and destroying my Blacker-than-Black bars. Very annoying.

I switched to an Nvidia card and the issue went away.

This is probably why you see report of "bad blacks" with Nvidia. The drivers behave differently. The ATI drivers assume you use a PC monitor for video content, and the Nvidia ones assume you use a television.

All these issues are avoided with a proper calibration of your video display, something you have to do if you want to compare apples to apples. In my case, I preferred a card that didn't muck with my video levels and followed the BT.601 and BT.709 video transform standards.

These things also change between driver versions, so once you've found something don't works, please don't update your drivers!

EDIT: This is with DVI digital out. With analog RGB, you may see issues caused by the DACs.

Yes, the ATi drivers are a mess for levels conversion.

The workaround is to do the RGB conversion further up the filter chain, either in the Haali Renderer (which gives you control, unlike the other renderers) or in the Decoder.

I chose to leave the levels at 16-235. I do the RGB conversion in the decoders currently, as Haali Renderer is not perfectly smooth for me.

The renderer and driver are fed RGB32, so there's nothing for them to convert or muck up.

But it does take more CPU.

leeperry

25th November 2008, 19:47

Yes, the ATi drivers are a mess for levels conversion.

The workaround is to do the RGB conversion further up the filter chain, either in the Haali Renderer (which gives you control, unlike the other renderers) or in the Decoder.

I chose to leave the levels at 16-235. I do the RGB conversion in the decoders currently, as Haali Renderer is not perfectly smooth for me.

The renderer and driver are fed RGB32, so there's nothing for them to convert or muck up.

But it does take more CPU.
GPU's pipelines are MUCH more complicated than one way in > one way out.
I bet you haven't compared the 2 brands....serie 8 is nowhere near as sharp or contrasty as any HD ATi card.

my problem is that many ppl from HCFR have said that the serie 9 wasn't any better on that point that the serie 8....which was terrible.

"don't fix it if it ain't broken" but I'm quite curious to see how HR reacts on green cards :D

and the pstrip equivalent within the pilots really sucks, apparently yesgrey3 knows a way to get very precise timings....

Mark_A_W

25th November 2008, 19:49

I have a HD2600XT leeperry.

rickdry

25th November 2008, 20:31

I am fairly new to reclock but have some observations I would like to get some feedback on. I run Vista 32 sp1.

I have used reclock to output spif to my receiver and matched the refresh rate by using VB script to pass media speed aand change my projector refresh. I have a JVC HD100 so all refresh rates are published to driver.

For spif out it works great the only issue I get is changing res can cause tearing.

Using Zoom I have also tried the decode to pcm via FFa - reclock resample and slow to 24 then encode to DD and output to spif.

I have noticed this approach introduces a lip sync issue which I need to delay audio by 100ms to resolve. I use delay in FFa.

It also does not seem as smooth in terms of video. I use Haalia render or evr.
I also see the sync in properties go from -40 to +85 flunctuating up and down

Questions:
1. do I need to clean up timing DB to resolve sync issue above?
2. How does vertical sync correction help and what does the + sign mean when it is out of the sync markers as this happens alot on my machine
3. I am temped to stick with spif pass thru with matched refresh rate and reclock dropping the odd frame if I can resolve the tearing issue on refresh rate changes. I do however like the one refresh rate for everything approach but given the testing I have done it looks like not as good.

Thanks

csundbom

25th November 2008, 22:52

The renderer and driver are fed RGB32, so there's nothing for them to convert or muck up.

But it does take more CPU.
Yep, not an option for me. With 1920x1080 I run out of power and start dropping frames. I also don't want to add additional filters to the chain unless absolutely needed.

Assuming you use ffdshow for color space conversion to RGB, how do you manage SD vs HD transforms? SD YUV uses BT.601 and HD YUV uses BT.709, and I haven't figured out to how configure ffdshow to switch automatically. I use VM codecs for VC1, CoreAVC for H.264 and DScaler for MPEG2 and Sonic filters for DVD. CoreAVC can be hardwired for RGB output, but not the other ones AFAIK. So I'm stuck with YUV out of the decoder most of the time. How can I manage this in ffdshow?

This is getting way OT, but I think it's an important discussion.

Mark_A_W

26th November 2008, 01:28

It doesn't worry me, I don't really watch SD anymore (well, some recorded TV on the monitor and who cares if the colourspace is wrong).

Ffdshow doesn't have an auto setting.

And Ffdshow resizing messes it up if you do the conversion in the Haali Renderer. It has a nice auto colourspace selection, but if you resize SD to a HD res it will be fooled.

No easy answer, sorry.

ashlar

26th November 2008, 03:54

and the pstrip equivalent within the pilots really sucks, apparently yesgrey3 knows a way to get very precise timings....Such as? You are talking about nvidia drivers (pilots)?

Jong

26th November 2008, 04:03

Assuming you use ffdshow for color space conversion to RGB, how do you manage SD vs HD transforms? SD YUV uses BT.601 and HD YUV uses BT.709, and I haven't figured out to how configure ffdshow to switch automatically.
Use ffdshow "presets". Create one for SD and HD or SD, 720P, 1080P and for each click on "autoload conditions". You will see you can set each preset to do different things, incluidng output in a different colorspace. You can also, like Halli, set it so it judges HD by the horizontal resolution instead of vertical so you don't have problems with 720p stuff with a 1.85:1 or 2.35:1 aspect ratio.

leeperry

26th November 2008, 06:14

Yep, not an option for me. With 1920x1080 I run out of power and start dropping frames. I also don't want to add additional filters to the chain unless absolutely needed.

Assuming you use ffdshow for color space conversion to RGB, how do you manage SD vs HD transforms? SD YUV uses BT.601 and HD YUV uses BT.709, and I haven't figured out to how configure ffdshow to switch automatically. I use VM codecs for VC1, CoreAVC for H.264 and DScaler for MPEG2 and Sonic filters for DVD. CoreAVC can be hardwired for RGB output, but not the other ones AFAIK. So I'm stuck with YUV out of the decoder most of the time. How can I manage this in ffdshow?

This is getting way OT, but I think it's an important discussion.
well simple, create profiles in ffdshow.
if x<1024 : RGB32HQ BT.601
if x>1024 : YV12

I personally use RGB32HQ in all cases, as the ATi drivers don't do progressively upsampled chroma :
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1137196&postcount=1868

actually I prefer ConvertToRGB32() in the avisynth filter of ffdshow coz the resulting .PNG's are always bigger...so I guess it does a better conversion.

Such as? You are talking about nvidia drivers (pilots)?
oops yeah I was a little tired I guess, french word for drivers is "pilotes" :D

OK, Haali's told me that he would look into the jitter situation w/ Reclock, and see what can be done :rock:

Jong

26th November 2008, 07:48

I also see the sync in properties go from -40 to +85 flunctuating up and downI see this too. It used to settle at 0-5ms, now it does not. However, the lipsync is very good (i.e. stable. Depending on your setup a static audio delay may of course be needed. I have to apply 80ms audio delay via my AV amp). I can only think this is now the correction factor being applied to make things as perfect as they can be, instead of a measure of that perfection (if that makes sesne).

csundbom

26th November 2008, 08:30

Use ffdshow "presets". Create one for SD and HD or SD, 720P, 1080P and for each click on "autoload conditions". You will see you can set each preset to do different things, incluidng output in a different colorspace. You can also, like Halli, set it so it judges HD by the horizontal resolution instead of vertical so you don't have problems with 720p stuff with a 1.85:1 or 2.35:1 aspect ratio.
Thanks Jong (and leeperry). I learned something today. Still not an option for me since it maxes out my CPU, but great to know.

ashlar

26th November 2008, 19:04

oops yeah I was a little tired I guess, french word for drivers is "pilotes" :DI got that, but what's yesgrey3's secret recipe for perfect timings on Nvidia?OK, Haali's told me that he would look into the jitter situation w/ Reclock, and see what can be done :rock:Good! :agree:

leeperry

27th November 2008, 06:49

what's yesgrey3's secret recipe for perfect timings on Nvidia?
no idea.......

ashlar

27th November 2008, 10:02

no idea.......Ahahahah!!! :D

Could you tell me where is he speaking about it, then?

leeperry

27th November 2008, 21:20

Ahahahah!!! :D

Could you tell me where is he speaking about it, then?
in PM on AVS :D

but his technique doesn't take in account that the CPU speed/PMTimer changes the DX refreshrate Reclock/the pstrip camera see.

so this is m00t.

ashlar

9th January 2009, 12:12

Hi leeperry. Just for the sake of keeping the chit-chat alive :)

What's your current configuration? OS, videorenderer, player, etc.
I'm curious to see the next step of your studies.

leeperry

9th January 2009, 15:33

I've ditched my crappy ATi 3850 card and now I'm exclusively using nvidia, that's about the only change :)

no more pesky drivers, inaccurate & buggy pstrip, much better jitter in HR......everything that annoyed the hell outta me with the ATi's has now come to an end :o

XP SP3/KMPlayer/HR in 48.000/50.000/59.940Hz

I'm also a betatester for CoreAVC CUDA, so it leaves my CPU free for ffdshow/avisynth filtering...as all the h264 decoding is done by my G92 GPU :agree:

noee

9th January 2009, 15:49

leeperry:
Did you ever try a 4000 series card? I ask because I'm currently running an HD2600XT and with the latest MPC (and jRiver MC13), all of a sudden, HR has started working incredibly well (jitter shows usually <4 sometimes 0.xx) and no more tearing half way through the movie.

I was getting ready to upgrade video cards until this all started working so well, now I wonder if it's worth it.

leeperry

9th January 2009, 16:34

well what matters is not how low you can get HR's jitter, it's how much it drifts overtime.

a wild guess would be that pstrip is not too accurate, as it's not officially backed by ATi....entech has to reverse engineer, so it "sorta" works :o

and an ATi card requires too many TSR's to my taste : MOM.exe/CCC.exe/pstrip.exe and the two pesky services :rolleyes:

on nvidia, there's no TSR required....I even made a batch to switch displays with one click, and w/o any TSR 8)

ashlar

10th January 2009, 07:26

leeperry

10th January 2009, 08:37

What nvidia card are you using? So you ditched pstrip as well?
GF9600
well who needs pstrip, being buggy & inaccurate as it is :disagree:

ashlar

10th January 2009, 09:22

GF9600
well who needs pstrip, being buggy & inaccurate as it is :disagree:Cool. I'm using an 8800GT, should be very similar architecturally. Are you on a 768p, 720p or 1080p display?

XP SP3/KMPlayer/HR in 48.000/50.000/59.940Hz, so CoreAVC for h264, ffdshow for the rest. What sound decoder are you using? AC3filter or ffdshow?
Any ffdshow scripting? Come on leeperry, share your knowledge and experimentations. Where's the fun otherwise! :D

James

10th January 2009, 10:56

well who needs pstrip, being buggy & inaccurate as it is :disagree:

I'm impressed by your wisdom! leeperry getting sane! :D

leeperry

10th January 2009, 17:29

I'm impressed by your wisdom! leeperry getting sane! :D
well I'm happy with my current setup, everything works great 8)
the only last issue is that even avisynth/ffdshow do poor chroma upsampling...but tritical is on the case, and is going to provide us with a gamut conversion plugin that does HQ chroma upsampling...so it's only gonna get better and better :

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1230065&postcount=27

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1235348&postcount=102

Are you on a 768p, 720p or 1080p display?
[...]
What sound decoder are you using? AC3filter or ffdshow?
Any ffdshow scripting?
I like Sonic 4.2 as it's got that crazy psychoacoustic pseudo-3D algorithm for headphones, it sounds terrific :eek:
well yeah I use LSF & GrainFactory3 in ffdshow to get a sharper picture and grainier...as it increases the 3D depth a great deal.
still using my 1280*768 HC3100, Mitsubishi just exchanged me the lamp under warranty...a brand new lamp is like getting a brand new projector :eek:

ashlar

11th January 2009, 06:19

GF9600
well who needs pstrip, being buggy & inaccurate as it is :disagree:So you're using the Nvidia control panel custom resolutions? How close do you manage to get to 48.000 in Reclock?

Jong

11th January 2009, 06:27

So is anyone using Runevent to change refresh rates with an ATI card and NOT using pstrip. If so, please can you share what you are doing.

I am currently using standard timings but pstrip to set them, as that is the only way I can avoid frequent lock ups (including blue-screens) when changing rates during playback. This works fine but it would be good to get rid of another background process if it is possible.

noee

11th January 2009, 08:08

I am. I have two profiles set up, one for 24Hz and one for 60Hz (for my second Monitor). I then use RunEvent to set the profile with the CLI.

Jong

11th January 2009, 10:42

Thanks I will try.

Mark_A_W

11th January 2009, 17:01

So you're using the Nvidia control panel custom resolutions? How close do you manage to get to 48.000 in Reclock?

Do you know if it would be possible to get 1920x1080 at 95.904hz interlaced using the Nvidia control panel, powerstrip, or maybe Rivatuner with a Nvidia card?

ashlar

11th January 2009, 17:24

Do you know if it would be possible to get 1920x1080 at 95.904hz interlaced using the Nvidia control panel, powerstrip, or maybe Rivatuner with a Nvidia card?Theoretically you could get it through the control panel. I don't have the screen to try it, though.

mark007

12th January 2009, 17:07

Hi all,

I have been trying to get my reclock settings correct for a day or two now. Its fantastic but took some time to work out what the settings do. Here I am giving the settings I came up with depending on my output hz and my desired effects.

My desired effects are
Video: If I use 25hz multiple for display, play my 24hz content at 25hz (reclock does this perfectly using auto setting but more settings need to be set correctly)
Video: If I use 24hz multiple for display, play my 25hz content at 24hz (Many need to be set correctly)
Audio: For PAL content (25 or 24fps), I want to listen to the original pitch, that is the pitch if played at 24fps.

So with my desired effects which I feel are very simple and very typical, i went about trying to achieve them in different hz setups, 24 and 25. Here are the settings I felt I needed to enable to get the desired effects.

==========================================
= multiple of 25hz displays =
==========================================

24fps content (in original form) -> 25fps
Audio timestretching when speeding up media: Enabled (to keep sound in original pitch)
Sound Adaptation: PAL SpeedDown: Disabled

25fps content (originally 24fps) -> 25fps
Audio timestretching - Main Checkbox: Enabled (to allow enabling of Sound Adaptation - PAL SpeedDown checkbox)
Sound Adaptation: PAL SpeedDown: Enabled

This leaves it impossible for me to use 25hz and achieve the effect I want, 24 and 25fps material played at 25fps, with the audio in the original pitch......
==========================================
= multiple of 24hz displays =
==========================================

24fps content (in original form) -> 24fps
Sound Adaptation - PAL SpeedDown: Disabled (Setting becomes selectable if any combination of audio timestretching is enabled). I don't think this setting should be selectable in this situation)

25fps content (originally 24fps) -> 24fps
Media Adaptation - PAL SpeedDown: Enabled
Sound Adaptation - PAL SpeedDown: Disabled (or lower pitch effect will be doubled resulting in deep voices.)
Audio timestretching -> when slowing down media: Disabled (Not sure if disabling this is necessary if Sound Adaptation - PAL SpeedDown is disabled)

==========================================

My first question is, am I correct in the settings I have come up with for myself through trial and error. I have found some problems with my HDTV when using 24p (because its 100hz internally) and am thinking of running all of my 24p blu-rays at 25fps (although I would rather run all my videos at 24fps obviously).

My second question is, if I am right with the settings above, could they be tidied up or made easier to understand. All I want is my PAL content to always sound right, and run my display at 24 or 25fps depending on what display I am using. Switching from one display to the other means changing lots of settings, but shouldn't the settings simply take in my desired effect (original sound pitch) and xfps. I mean when running my display at 24hz for example, and using Media Adaptation - Pal SpeedDown, its completely counterintuitive that I need to keep Sound Adaptation - Pal SpeedDown disabled. I would naturally turn this on and end up with very deep voices!)

If I was to go in and change anything with these settings I would have some area for like...

Pal Playback settings -> Desired Audio Effect - Play at proper pitch / Play at encoded (wrong) pitch
Pal Playback settings -> Desired Video Effect - Play at proper rate (24fps) / Play at encoded (wrong) rate

I am not sure how something like this could fit in with existing settings, but I definitely think some changes could be made to improve the interface.

My third and final question is, how much would you say audio timestretching damages the sound quality....

Regards,
Mark

ashlar

12th January 2009, 17:57

Mark, have a look here: http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=25536

mark007

12th January 2009, 18:01

Thanks for that, but my issue really is with scaling everything to 25fps.... I know this isn't the optimal solution because of the 4% video speedup but my Samsung Series 9 displays horrible combing artifacts at 24p (100hz internal) so I would rather 4% speedup in video (0% speedup in audio) for (what was originally) 24fps material.

I cannot find a combination of settings that will let me use or 50hz output on my display, and get both 24fps and 25fps material playing at 25fps with the correct pitch sound. I can get one or the other individually, but not both which means constantly changing reclock settings.

bonzichrille

13th January 2009, 05:33

Trying to understand how to change my refreshrate automatically usingvbs script. Im certainly a little lost, looks just like jibberish to me. However, ive retrieved the vbs script from noee above.

-Will this script acess the ati driver through CLI and change the resolution just as if I would have done it in CCC? or am I missunderstanding the concept of CLI? googled it and found refrences to some process in taskmanager.

-From noee's script its easy to understand that he uses a second monitor, I dont. Can i just erase this line from the script: "if currentMonitor = 1 Then Wscript.Quit 1" and script will still work, doing its thing on my single hdtv monitor?

-If I understand the jibberush correctly noee's script does not revert to a standard refreshrate after its done? Were do I insert this line?

Jong

13th January 2009, 05:53

The sample script in the Reclock folder may give you a better feel for the way things work, although you may want to use Noee's CLI command to actually change refresh rates.

Reverting to a "standard" refresh rate in the vbs script is problematic. Many discs continually start and stop video as they load various menu elements and if you use "STOP" to reset the rate (as in the sample script) it will flick between rates repeatedly. Very distracting. You may be able to use "QUIT", depending on your player. But TheaterTek, for one, never causes a QUIT event to occur. If QUIT does not work you need to do it manually after plyback has finished, or many HTPC front-ends will allow you to set a "post command" to be run when the player exits.

leeperry

15th January 2009, 08:32

I cannot find a combination of settings that will let me use or 50hz output on my display, and get both 24fps and 25fps material playing at 25fps with the correct pitch sound.
well you can enable timestretching for speeding up, but this will do a 95% shrink so you'll actually lose 5% of audio data :o
prolly still better that the chipmunks syndrome I guess :D

I think there's also an option to slow down 25@24 and then use timestretching@25....but you may wanna ask someone else as I've never bothered w/ 25fps...video frames run 5% too fast, and I don't like that(even if it creates less RBE than 24 on my DLP :rolleyes: )

leeperry

24th April 2009, 19:28

It is a balance of Crapness! I will happily put up with one, maybe two, dropped frames a movie of which 60% I do not notice to never have to "catch the vsync"; For not just me, but the family, be able to just press "!play" and away we go! :)
well gothplayer might be the answer to this :)

and madshi might very well end up w/ the ultimate renderer, he's already achieved HR's smoothness and the damn thing is 1 week old. plus it does crazy colorimetry stuff and it's 100% GPU accelerated.

Beliyaal seems to be able to never miss the VSYNC from what I've seen? so it's doable after all, too bad his code cannot work on HR/mVR :(

Jong

24th April 2009, 19:35

Yeah, Madshi's work is great. He has a dedication to quality that guy, Maybe when I junk this system I will have a CPU that can do everything in software and not sound like a jet engine. Its a shame DXVA is so tied to MS renderers. Maybe SlyPlayer will (one day) be able to use both Nvidia and ATI GPUs directly :bowdown:

leeperry

24th April 2009, 20:28

well, it's my understanding that SlyPlayer will be a third party GUI to open BD menus...I guess it'd rely on installed decoders?

and it doesn't have its own video renderer apparently, so except w/ a miracle I don't see how it's gonna help to catch the VSYNC on XP and never drop frames :o

Jong

25th April 2009, 04:55

That's not what I heard at all. They specifically said it would use its own non-Directshow filter chain, so it can't use pre-installed filters. I don't think we know what the renderer will be, but I accept it is most likely to be VMR9 (XP) and EVR (Vista/W7). Might be able to get them to use Madshi's though, when it is mature enough.

leeperry

25th April 2009, 06:16

non-Directshow :confused:

I guess I can say byebye to ffdshow then...

and it'll be a free product, how could they pay all the ridiculous licences to DTS/Dolby etc...they have to use third party decoders from PDVD/WinDVD/Arcsoft, oh well hopefully we'll find out soon enough 8)

Jong

25th April 2009, 06:48

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?p=189281#post189281

http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=189545&postcount=292

leeperry

25th April 2009, 07:31

ah! no avisynth scripting :(

I can't live w/o LSF/GrainFactory3/rgb3dlut, so that's a show stopper :doh:

leeperry

20th May 2009, 08:34

Hey, good to see you back on XP mate. Remember http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?p=136286&highlight=vista#post136286? :p
what annoys me on Vista is :
-the mandatory Cleartype, it makes the fonts blurry as hell on CRT/DLP...m$ assumes we all use crappy LCD
-all the stupid background processes, I got 17 on XP...like 30 on Vista, and that's the bare minimum! more processes means more security threats(open ports etc)...I've seen some guys on doom9 w/ +70 processes :eek:
-the only simple firewall I could find is the m$ stock one, and I don't quite trust them...they could easily put some backdoor.
-what's the point anyway? XP works fine and is fast when you remove all the bloat....and use a Vista GUI XP theme :D

Jong

20th May 2009, 08:55

I hear you.

I would add to that that MS, in it's efforts to make a more reliable product for joe public, are progressively closing down the "backdoor hacks" that can enable a reliable HTPC. And even Win7 still does not seem to really "get" what is needed for truly dependable video playback. Aero is a mixed "blessing". Although it tries to do some good things it adds an extra software layer between your video renderer and your GPU and with the fine timings needed to get guaranteed smooth playback that does not seem too smart.

Some of these issues will be solved as new Win7 tools emerge, but I fear the extra "security", often tied to DRM, will make it more difficult if not impossible to hack it for perfect playback.

Sadly, though, at some time we will have to move!

Mark_A_W

20th May 2009, 09:00

-what's the point anyway? XP works fine and is fast when you remove all the bloat....and use a Vista GUI XP theme :D

32 bit volume control.

WASAPI.

EVR renderer (maybe moot point with MadVR).

Jong

20th May 2009, 09:02

32 bit volume control.

WASAPI.

EVR renderer (maybe moot point with MadVR).EVR seems to work just as well on XP. IMO arguably better, without Aero. Only downside is no h.264 hardware acceleration, but since DXVA2 works on XP with VC-1 I don't know if this is a fundamental issue or one which might be resolved in a future driver.

Mark_A_W

20th May 2009, 09:07

EVR on XP is tearing city for me, completely unusable.

EVR is only really useful in the EVR Custom Beliyaal form. It's really smooth.

DXVA? My PC can play 2 blurays at once, both with 6 channel digital room correction applied ;)

I am building a smaller HTPC for the TV. But even with that I think I'll skip DXVA, as you can't get a gamma control. I'll just OC an E5200 till it's fast enough and use a HD2600XT video card from a mate (like my main PC's HD2600XT - it works fine, even for MadVR).

Jong

20th May 2009, 09:09

Beliyaal's EVR CP works great here on XP. Very impressive.

The only problem for my Core2Duo @2.7Ghz, which does need DXVA for some blu-rays, is the lack of h.264 DXVA2 support (and EVR cannot be forced in PDVD7/8 ).

leeperry

20th May 2009, 09:09

yeah Aero is just another additional layer, and HR doesn't like it anyway!

I'm sure Win7 will have even more bloat, I'm willing to bet :D

I currently use KS on XP, and I use the Windows master volume control.

the KXdrivers engineers have been pretty clear that the Master Volume is always hardware accelerated...so bypass the wave mixer(this one is indeed flaky!) and you're good to go.

BTW, I've just found out about Volumouse...I'm totally addicted now :D

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5319/fooo.png

you can set whatever volume control you want to the mouse wheel when the mouse pointer is over a window title bar...so convenient! you can leave foobar in the systray and set the volume from any app :)

too bad it won't work in KMP, though

leeperry

20th May 2009, 19:09

actually you can set Volumouse on the left-click pushed *anywhere* + mousewheel, great stuff! I'm totally sold :agree:

http://thumbnails8.imagebam.com/3636/8a450136352879.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/8a450136352879)

anyway, the Asus soundcard seems to work fine now...the K.I.S.S. principe applies :
-ffdshow video(sharpen/avisynth/gamut conversion)
-ffdshow audio(binaural 5.1>stereo downmix matrix>Ozone4>32 float)
-Reclock in 32float>24int DirectKS
-HR in 48Hz/RGB32
-KMP

I use ffdshow-mt for h264, which is more less identical to CoreAVC....the CUDA acceleration was nice but sorta laggy when you start the movie, the CPU>GPU>CPU handshake latency I guess.

and I'm not sure whether James changed anything lately(he prolly did), but whatever my friends from HCFR or me are getting fantastic jitter figures in HR :agree:

so many efforts to get a HTPC working, I can fully understand ppl who go standalone player! the hell w/ it :D

too bad none of them will ever be as smooth as Reclock....everything has a price as they say.

PS: I'm not sure what libraries to select for AC3/DTS in ffdshow ?! I've read through google that liba52 was decoding AC3 in 32float, that's good stuff! I was doing that in AC3Filter.

Jong

25th June 2009, 10:40

continuing from page 365 of the support thread....

D3D on its own does not stop synchronised judder. All it does is free up Reclock vsync correction to fix it, whilst at the same time eliminating tearing. "Normally" if vsync is fixed in the renderer it prevents Reclock vsync from working (vsync appears "pinned"/imoveable with Reclock's vsync display and turning on correction has undesireable side-effects.). And D3D does not seem to be necessary for this as the same is true of PowerDVD7&8, which does not use D3D exclusive mode.

leeperry

25th June 2009, 11:06

yes, it's amazing that a bloated software company like Cyberlink actually managed to do something this hard so accurately :eek:

I guess being in contact w/ m$ and GPU manufacturers helps..

anyway, I might try Beliyaal's build again, but I'm not too keen on EVR tbh...I'd rather use mVR, but this one doesn't support D3D mode on XP...so it has to run on Vista/7 to get Aero support :o

Jong

25th June 2009, 11:16

yes, it's amazing that a bloated software company like Cyberlink actually managed to do something this hard so accurately :eek:They were lucky I guess. Since they seem completely incapable of doing even the simplest most obvious things with any accuracy at all!

leeperry

25th June 2009, 16:19

anyone using mVR on W7 around? W7 is looking hot w/ all the audio improvements(glitch resilience, WASAPI exclusive and all)..does it work to force triple buffering in MPC HC+mVR using D3DOverrider?

Mark_A_W

27th June 2009, 03:52

What's D3DOverrider Max?

leeperry

27th June 2009, 04:04

hey Mark, it's part of RivaTuner...and forcing triple buffering for MPC HC+EVR on Vista ensures that Reclock never misses the VSYNC fliptime :

http://s40.radikal.ru/i090/0901/1b/44a5f08d1971.jpg

w/ a bit of luck, it'd also work for mVR on W7...and I might slowly think about upgrading :agree:

Mark_A_W

27th June 2009, 04:31

Nvidia only then?

leeperry

27th June 2009, 04:36

nope, any card works

Mark_A_W

27th June 2009, 04:48

Ok, I've installed it, and set it as you've shown (except I set it to start with windows).

Is that all I have to do?

Do I need to set Reclock to D3D rather than Auto?

leeperry

27th June 2009, 04:51

you can then open RivaTuner, enable its realtime events checker(where it gives the temperatures and so), add the "rivatuner event viewer"(not sure of the name) and you will see events from d3doverrider.

forcing vsync is usually not needed(you will read "vsync is already forced") but triple buffering should work.

can you try w/ mVR on W7 in MPC HC?

Mark_A_W

27th June 2009, 04:55

Ta.

I've just downloaded W7 RC1 today - I hope to install it tomorrow.

But I'm not sure the Xonar will work with it.

If so, I will try.

I'm still getting an occasional fraction of a second glitch/repeat in Vista. I was going to reinstall Vista, but decided to give W7 a whirl.

Mark_A_W

27th June 2009, 05:00

Do you mean the Statistics Server?

leeperry

27th June 2009, 05:06

I'm talking about the place where you get the temperature/fan rpm graphs.

it should also work on Vista.

to get the Xonar drivers working on W7, you might need to set the Audio Center .exe to Vista SP1 compatiblity.

could also need to use msconfig and uncheck the C-Media DLL and HSMGR.exe

native W7 drivers are coming, and also bit-perfect btw w/ an "automatic" samplerate ;)

noee

27th June 2009, 08:38

Guys, I thought the triple-buffering wasn't implemented in ATI or nVidia drives for DirectX, but only for OpenGL? That seems to be what the Anand article says as well.

On ATI CCC, there is a setting called "OpenGL Triple Buffer", which would seem to back that up.

Does that mean that D3Doverrider.exe can implement for triple buffering independent of the driver?

BTW, on my ATI card, RivaTurner (2.24) "hardware monitoring" does not give the option for D3Doverrider.exe, so you can just run it directly from the RivaTuner folder (Tools).

leeperry

27th June 2009, 12:22

this trick has been reported to work w/ MPC HC+EVR on Vista...that's all I can say for now.

noee

27th June 2009, 14:46

I don't see how, but I'm no guru. But, based on this quote from Madshi (in the madVR thread on doom9, responding to a question), Triple Buffering for OpenGL has no impact on madVR (which we could surmise, given madVR is not an OpenGL renderer):

That's weird. Do you mean that Triple Buffering option for OpenGL? That cannot possibly have any effect on madVR cause madVR simply doesn't use OpenGL! The VSync option can have an effect - but only if you had it "forced off" before. All other settings should be identical, cause madVR asks the graphics card to please do use VSync.

leeperry

27th June 2009, 15:09

it's called "D3D Overrider" :)

try it, look in the RivaTuner event viewer, it does force triple buffering for D3D.

noee

27th June 2009, 15:25

Okay, I've turned it on for MplayerC.exe and I'm in the event viewer. Where are seeing that D3D triple bufferring is turned on in the event viewer?

leeperry

27th June 2009, 16:32

I don't have it installed right now, this should help :
you can then open RivaTuner, enable its realtime events checker(where it gives the temperatures and so), add the "rivatuner event viewer"(not sure of the name) and you will see events from d3doverrider.

forcing vsync is usually not needed(you will read "vsync is already forced") but triple buffering should work.

leeperry

23rd July 2009, 07:29

BTW, I dunno if you guys noticed but HR w/ KMP in 96.000Hz is simply perfect!

you can seek as much as you want, it NEVER misses the VSYNC :eek:

and the jitter is very stable! double :eek:

if only it worked this well in 48.000Hz :bang:

now I want a projector that accepts 96Hz....and no, not a huge ass CRT based one :D

Mark_A_W

23rd July 2009, 20:31

....and no, not a huge ass CRT based one :D

Real men have projectors that weigh more than they do ;)

mitchmalibu

29th July 2009, 19:40

Has anyone been able to force a custom resolution with the new 190.38 nvidia drivers ?

I'm trying to run my hdtv display @ 24.000hz by creating a new custom resolution, which the card could do easily with the old 186 drivers, but now, it keeps defaulting to the standard 23hz windows setting which runs at 23.962hz on my system. I'm still wondering why they again changed the custom resolution system as it worked quite well in the previous releases ...

Using w7.

leeperry

30th July 2009, 21:31

didn't try the new 190.x drivers, but using pstrip's camera and some patience...it should be entirely doable :)

BTW, there's chipmunks on youtube too : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svGAucw3Y80

it sounds like 24@29.97 or sumthing :D

leeperry

12th September 2009, 21:01

just wanted to say that the latest KMP beta works perfectly fine w/ madVR :

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/2047/kmpc.th.png (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/kmpc.png/)

http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14901&page=2

smoother than HR in 47.952fps@48/96Hz, and no more jitter bs!

also, it doesn't seem to drop frames randomly after 1H of playtime like MPC HC does all the time on XP...

it's also sharper than HR, maybe due to the dithering, the very soft chroma...I dunno, but it's really great :)

I'm also in contact w/ a VST plugin coder who's working on a way to add a VST "pipeline" in a DS graph...between ffdshow and Reclock to be exact.

all in 32float, and no need to directwire/rewire anything anymore for bass management/audio post-processing o/

you know, someday my HTPC will work perfectly(and I'll be bored to death :p), the only last annoying thing is that sometimes mVR misses the VSYNC when opening a new file..and requires a reseek to catch it properly.

if somehow James and madshi could sync their renderers, this would be the icing on the cake 8)

Jong

12th September 2009, 22:05

if somehow James and madshi could sync their renderers, this would be the icing on the cake 8)I'm opening myself up for ridicule here I know :), but just for the fun of it, and despite what some who really should know have said in the past, I just do not believe this stuff about needing to closely coordinate Reclock (audio renderer?) and the video renderer to solve vsync problems. As long as the video renderer is good and "tight" in what it does and it "gets out of the way enough" to allow Reclock vsync correction to control frame presentation, in exactly the way it currently does by small changes in frame rate, Reclock is quite capable of providing judder free playback indefinitely (even after every seek ;)), so long as Windows does not go off and do some stupid task that delays the delivery of the frame by more than say 12ms @50hz. If James fixes Reclock vsync correction so it targets a single figure instead of the "pointless" 15% range, this would improve still further to maybe 15ms.

No amount of coordination between audio and video renderers is going to be able to fix judders which are caused by long stalls in the video processing chain caused by errant processes and if those are eliminated Reclock can provide perfect vsync correction, as long as it is given free control over timing frame presentation.

Mark_A_W

12th September 2009, 22:32

Gotta download link Scratch?

leeperry

13th September 2009, 05:15

when you add ChangeFPS(frameRate*2) in ffdshow's avisynth, it really goes one notch further smoothness-wise 8)

@Mark_A_W: in the firt page of my link?

@Jong: it's true that Beliyaal's EVR CP doesn't seem to EVER miss the VSYNC on XP...but both the original Reclock coder and Seb.26 said that a perfect A/V renderers sync would avoid hiccup when playback starts.

mostly Reclock sends a "perfect" clock, but is clueless about where the video renderer starts....if they could somehow sync, this would not occur.

but madshi is AWOL anyway, so for now I'll just reseek at the beginning of each movie...that'll give me a good reason to whine on forums anyway, and hopefully someday madshi will found a solution :agree:

Jong

13th September 2009, 05:41

Gothsync option 1 (or option 3 although that will drop single frames from time to time), or EVR or VMR9 in D3D mode with Reclock vsync or (I'm pretty sure)Beliyaal's EVR-CP will never suffer from judder at the start of playback or (other than "option 3") after 1 hour/2 hours etc. etc. and will ony drop a frame when there is a long pause in video processing that will break any player. There are quite a few options now.

Ar-jar of gothsync fame is hoping to do a triple buffered version of his VMR9 renderer in non-D3D mode that will allow reclcok to work without the restrictions of exclusive mode.

But I do recognise MadVR is the king for PQ. if Madshi returns you should prompt him to port ar-jars sync code to MadVR, but still ar-jar's code relies on a well matched frame rate and refresh rate, without that it does not have Reclock's resampling capability so audio can suffer. Maybe Madshi could make his renderer Reclock friendly? There is no excuse, in my book, for having to put up with "catching the vsync" anymore!

leeperry

13th September 2009, 07:32

There is no excuse, in my book, for having to put up with "catching the vsync" anymore!
if you care to discuss it in details on the doom9 mVR thread, I'll try to ask madshi if he can look into it :)

Jong

13th September 2009, 07:43

Sadly always happy to discuss this stuff :o.

But, I understand his priority on getting the PQ just perfect. It is what makes MadVR different. It might make sense to let ar-jar make his triple buffered VMR9 and get that into Sourceforge. Then we will have proof on concept and some code for Madshi to look at.

leeperry

13th September 2009, 07:49

well it works really really well at this point, I've droppped a PM to madshi...if you could please explain again how to catch the friggin'VSYNC properly, we'd have something to chew on :agree:

Jong

13th September 2009, 07:55

I've lost track of what Madshi does with vsync in MadVR. Any reading you can point me to? if you are able to use it with reclock without it all going horribly wrong my guess is nothing and it is just the stability (lack of drift) that makes it work most of the time, except at the start/after a seek. But maybe I'm wrong?

leeperry

13th September 2009, 08:07

not sure :o
I know it used to go nuts after 1H in MPC(like EVR/VMR9 in non-D3D modes)...but in KMP it seems to work perfectly fine for as long as you want :)

the only issue at this point is that it's bound to miss the friggin'VSYNC when playback starts...if you got any rocket science pointers to avoid that, please enlighten us in the mVR thread 8)

leeperry

13th September 2009, 16:48

anyway, it looks like mVR has been put on hold for a few months..and that this won't be changing anytime soon...

oh well, it still beats HR and Beliyaal's EVR CP by a long shot!....no HTPC will ever be perfect, it's a take it or leave it kinda deal! and reseeking at the beginning of most movies is not -that- annoying for a such smooth and sharp PQ :disagree:

leeperry

13th September 2009, 20:42

BTW, if I check "disable anti-tearing fix"....magic happens I think :D

even if I don't catch the VSYNC properly, when it reaches the last third of the screen, Reclock's tearing test doesn't hiccup anymore...now I just need to check whether this will run smoothly for +1H in a row. anyway, it looks like when you enable this option, mVR stops fighting against Reclock to control the VSYNC :)

I wonder if Reclock can control the VSYNC for mVR?

Jong

14th September 2009, 05:14

Sorry, I don't think so. Certainly, even with "disable tearing fix", Reclock cannot get it's vsync marker into the target zone. Unfortunately, MadVR's OSD does not really let us see what is going on, and MadVR clearly does something different in controlling vsync to normal renderers (Reclock vsync marker not solid fixed at the top of the screen like with other renderers with a "hard" vsync). It looks like MadVR is trying to fix the vsync, in a similar way to Reclock, but with a fixed position about 2 thirds of the way down the screen, although if you need to catch the vsync it obviously doesn't do it quite right.

Normally if Reclock is fighting to control vsync you get periodic judder (and sometimes a little tearing too) every 20secs to about 1 min, depending on how far away the Reclock vsync target is from the vsync marker. I do see some tearing every now and again, but didn't notice the periodic judder, maybe because of the different way MadVR is controlling vsync itself. But I'm not convinced the MadVR OSD will tell us if frames are dropped due to sycnhronised frame rate judder, only if they are dropped in the renderer.

Although Reclock is clearly not able to freely control vsync it is possible I guess that in fighting with MadVR it may be moving it just enough to avoid synchronised judder :confused: Is there any difference in the Reclock vsync marker position when you are in judder, to when all is smooth? Turn off reclock vsync correction, but enable the vsync marker, when in judder and when not. Can you tell any difference?

leeperry

14th September 2009, 06:53

indeed, in 47.952fps@96.000Hz the VSYNC indicator remains right in the middle of the screen and hardly moves...whatever this mVR option is checked or not.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/9224/kb1p.th.png (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/kb1p.png/)

it only seems to change the seeking behavior, when it's unchecked seeking can either catch it properly(90% of the time) or not....when it's checked, seeking pretty much always stutters...until it reaches the last third of the screen, and then it's dead smooth.

I've tried to seek many many times, it hardly ever fails when this option is checked...I'd say it's 90% reliable :)

and God is that VR smooth :eek:

Jong

14th September 2009, 08:53

So what are you saiyng is happening to the vsync marker when it judders? Are you saying sometimes it gets stuck at the top and takes a while to get down to the bottom third? But don't you also say it stays bang in the middle :confused:

And didn't you say checking "disable anti-tearing fix" helped, now in part of your last post you seem to be saying it makes things worse :confused: :confused:

I don't understand!

leeperry

14th September 2009, 10:13

whatever this option is checked or not, it won't change the VSYNC Reclock indicator behavior for me...which will remain right in the middle of the screen, hardly moving.

OTOH, if I leave the option unchecked....when seeking you still have a chance to miss the VSYNC, and it *won't* fix itself...you'll have to reseek to catch it properly.

BUT if you check it, seeking will pretty much ALWAYS stutter *until* it reaches the last horizontal third of the screen, then it'll fix itself and Reclock's tearing test won't stutter anymore...99% of the time. explanations? I have none, try it, tell me 8)

Jong

14th September 2009, 10:45

Ah. So your saying if is checked there is a second or so of stutter, then it fixes itself, when the Reclock tearing bar is in the last third (I thought you were refering to the vsync marker being in the last third). I get it. That is quite common even with Reclock as it tries to get the fram presenation to the right place and moves it through vsync.

It does look like MadVR is trying to fix vsync in a way similar to the way Reclock does it and this is maybe broken by his "tearing fix", definitely one for his thread.

On the other hand none of these "renderer fixes" for vsync allow for adapting frame rates in the way Reclock does. It would be good if they at least had an option to allow Reclock to do its stuff.

leeperry

14th September 2009, 13:05

yeah well, mVR has been put on hold anyway..and so far it "works", and looks stunningly smooth and color accurate :clap:

I'll run a dozen movies before calling it a day, but it hasn't gone bersek after +1H of playtime so far.

oh and I've received my Audiotrak Prodigy HD2 Deluxe soundcard, the VIA generic drivers are killer! SRC is totally forbidden(foobar gives error messages if need be), automatic hardware sample rate in KS, no resident app required..awesomeness! at least VIA didn't fail me so far, still rolling op-amps to find a nice mix for my MDR-CD3000 headphones :)

Mark_A_W

14th September 2009, 22:56

Leeperry

About time you got on the madVR bandwagon...

I installed KMPlayer, and got it working with madVR.

But I can't get it to load madFLAC. I disabled the internal FLAC decoder, and forced madFLAC. But it doesn't work....well, I don't think it works...

...Because I can't figure out how to get KMPlayer to list the filters in use.

And all I get for FLAC playback is 2 channels reported in Reclock, instead of 8 channels.

All my Bluray's ripped to MKV have 5.1 or 7.1 FLAC audio. I only watch HD...HD all the way!!

leeperry

15th September 2009, 00:02

you prolly need to disable the A/V transform filters in the options.

I use madflac in 7.1 + ffdshow to downmix to binaural stereo w/o any problem.

KMP has zillion options, but it's far more stable w/ Reclock than MPC, far more advanced options(seamless playback etc) and far cooler anyway :agree:

MPC HC brings me back to WMP6.4 on W95 OSR2 in 1996, no chance I will ever use this player..plus it's buggy as can be(when I close it, it remains as a system process...etc etc). KMP is pure bliss w/ Reclock + mVR :)

you can also delete all the DLL's in the KMP folder, and only keep these ones:
KIconLib.dll
MediaInfo.dll
PProcDLL.DLL

leeperry

15th September 2009, 08:31

final is out: http://www.kmplayer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14938

Mark_A_W

15th September 2009, 09:13

I got it to use madVR once.

But it keeps falling back to Overlay mixer....GRRRR.

And how do you bring up a filters-in-use list?

leeperry

15th September 2009, 13:02

right click/filters or left click on the video stream indicator("h264") in the bottom transport bar :

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/796/kb2.th.png (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/kb2.png/)

KMP has a very steep learning curve, but once you get the hang of it...it's pure bliss 8)

Mark_A_W

15th September 2009, 17:39

Ok, I can see the filters by clicking on the h264/vc1 button.

It's using Overlay Mixer, despite having madVR picked.

And there is no right-click filters (?).

It'll have to be pretty damn good to wean me off Zoom Player.

leeperry

16th September 2009, 19:06

sure there is:

http://thumbnails21.imagebam.com/4910/cad76d49094624.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/cad76d49094624)

and you need to run in superspeed/high speed mode, and delete all the DLL's from the KMP folder...except the ones I listed in one of my previous post :

http://thumbnails22.imagebam.com/4910/a02b3e49094625.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a02b3e49094625)

anyway, don't tell me KMP is more complicated than ZP...coz the automatic codec selector in ZP is just unbearable, as buggy as can be..

and I dunno whether your Xonar has swappable op-amps, but I would strongly recommend to roll them w/ LME49720HA. this chip is just amazing 8)

http://www.stockhammer.eu/hifi/images2/IMG_0761_b240.jpg

Mark_A_W

16th September 2009, 19:37

Ok, are you running a different skin or something?

I don't have that filters menu.

I've never let the automatic codec selector in ZP do it's thing. I use advanced mode and set them all up manually. It's just awesome - I can string together the exact filter chain I want, and I use renderer override so that I only use madVR for mkv files (blurays) and haali renderer for "normal" videos, as madVR is unstable if you resize, or move the window.

And I would shorten those leads on that can opamp. But no, I'm not changing them at the moment, I would need lots (8 channels worth). My Active Crossover is full of TL072s (at unity gain) anyway.

leeperry

16th September 2009, 20:26

I use a slightly modified version of the stock GUI, I took off the volume control(useless in KS).

if you right-click on the video, you prolly need to go to /options/ and check "advanced menu"?

well, I thought about shorting the two LPF op-amps of my AK4396...but quite frankly the LME49720HA does some stellar filtering, has a crazy low end bass response and a huge *ss soundstage(totaly amazing on my mdr-cd3000). this is the same as the LME49720NA, but the metal cap improves the EMI shielding and the bass reponse...in a pretty tremendous way :agree:

well, get some samples from National, they're cheap! I paid US $12 for 3 of them...it doesn't matter if your receiver has crappy op-amps, the 49720HA will still add a nice touch 8)

Mark_A_W

16th September 2009, 20:30

Sorry, a typo, I meant shorten the leads - so you don't pick up noise (they are little aerials).

I don't have a receiver. I run 8x analogue out from the HDAV deluxe to an active crossover, then into poweramps. It's the active crossover than has TL072s.

Mark

leeperry

16th September 2009, 20:43

yes, I bent them like this: http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1268/dscn1700f.th.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/dscn1700f.jpg/)

they also carry those super-HQ mids the 4562 has been famous for...too good to be true for movies dialogs :)

Jong

17th September 2009, 08:40

@leeperry.

It occurred to me, are you sure that MadVR really has a problem with "catching the vsync"? It is just worth checking because it is possible you may be seeing things that are making you jump to the wrong conclusion. Of course, without being there I don't know for sure.

The point is when MadVR and Reclock make small adjustments to the frame rate to pull the vsync into the right position, sometimes they have to pull it "through" vsync to get it there. This, just like normal synchronised judder, leads to a "burst" of judder that can start any time from the start of playback/seek to maybe 10 seconds later and it will last for a second or so. However, once the vsync is in position, with Reclock at least, it stays there.

So seeing a brief burst of judder 0-10secs into playback is normal (50% of the time) with vsync correction enabled. If it continues for more than 1-2 secs or occurs later in playback something is wrong.

I just wanted to check you are not seeing a brief burst of judder and assuming that MadVR has not "caught the vsync", when in fact you are seeing a normal (brief) side-effect of pulling vsync into position.

leeperry

17th September 2009, 21:34

when I check "disable tearing fix" in mVR, what you just explained happens.......the Reclock tearing bar is jerky until it reaches the last horizontal third of the screen, then it fixes itself(well 99% of the time anyway).

when the option is unchecked, mVR can indeed "miss" the VSYNC....and this won't fix itself whatsoever, I have to reseek.

Jong

17th September 2009, 22:36

Yeah, then it does sound like the tearing fix may break his vsync correction. Hopefully it will not be too hard a fix when he returns (certainly it tears here without the 'fix').

leeperry

1st October 2009, 23:19

BTW, ages ago Seb.26 brought the idea that we could simply swap the PLL quartz of our graphic cards to another one much more accurate.

many ppl do it on their soundcards: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/6002929-post112.html

tbh, all these consumer soundcards are based on the CMI8788 chip...it has a 750ps jitter spec, which is awfully high! so the tighter your clock ref the better.

maybe we could actually put a killer quartz on our graphic cards to kill jitter altogether?

and I'm soon getting a new mobo, the Asus P5K Premium...which is prolly one of the best s775 mobo I think, the PCB is just shielded as you wouldn't believe: http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=Jg7gThXvovYfZO6F

30% reduced power ripples during heaving loading and enhanced signal delivery with low cross-talk.

that should keep my soundcard happy :D

and it's got several SS options that you can disable...I wonder what this will mean for Reclock:

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/4876/asusv.png

and lately I was using Reclock on FLAC soundtracks in full bit-perfect KS(no adaptation) to find my favorite op-amp...and now that I've found it, I'm realizing that libsamplerate really ruins the SQ....ah well, it's either pristine SQ + judder or worse SQ + butter-smooth PQ.
Maybe I'll have a go at 47.952Hz w/ the no-resampling DLL again. http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:wWhu_RhHij087M http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/kabouk.gif

ashlar

2nd October 2009, 03:28

leeperry, although this thread is clearly targeted at enthusiasts, you might want to better qualify that "libsamplerate really ruins the SQ". With Excellent resampling quality things are not so obvious IMO and will definitely not be for the majority of people (and equipment).

Then again, if you constantly manage to ABX the difference, more power to you. :)

leeperry

2nd October 2009, 06:34

well, on lossy audio it'd be harder to hear I guess...but on a good lossless FLAC soundtracks from TrueHD, resampling is very much audible.

it's not about noise level, it's about distortion...it turns FLAC into MP3 basically. maybe a 2X samplerate option would help. so instead of going 48KHz@47952(lossy as hell!), it'd go 48Khz@95904Hz...that prolly would sound a heck better.

leeperry

7th October 2009, 22:17

BTW, I was told by CoreCodec's founder that HMS 2.0 would fix all the problem w/ Reclock+HR :eek:

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1329498&postcount=1325

it's too early for xmas, but I'm a believer http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/saxou.gif

Haali is a magician, he just doesn't work for free...so if CoreCodec shows the green, he could fix HR to work perfectly fine w/ Reclock in a snap :policeman:

I haven't watched any movie in full lately, but Kazuya told me that mVR tends to drop frames randomly on XP in KMP...and madshi went AWOL too, so HR might actually be the only viable option at this point.

leeperry

20th October 2009, 16:03

so anyone playing around w/ mVR+KMP? it's really dead smooth on XP SP3 for me...no dropped frames whatsoever in 48.000Hz/96.000Hz for me. it also hardly ever misses the VSYNC when skipping(less than 1% of the time, as checking "disable tearing fix" takes care of things).

too good to be true! HR and its jitter bs completely disgusted me of using my HTPC, but this is just fantastic...and even sharper and smoother than HR :rock:

Jong

20th October 2009, 17:25

I have a perfectly working solution using Reclock vsync correction and VMR9. It flawless syncronises to a safe vsync position in MPC-HC and PowerDVD even using DXVA. Of course this requires running in D3D mode but, as Madshi has himself said (and ar-jar of "Gothsync" too), to really make its timing robust against occasional glitches he is implementing a D3D/exclusive version of mVR too. So robust video playback requires exclusive mode. I think all active renderer developers agree on that now.

I like the concept of mVR, but honestly I have looked for improvements in PQ during normal movie playback (rather than test patterns) and clearly my eyes are not good enough to see it, even 2ft from the screen. I would use it anyway, for its theoretical advantages, but I could not put up with the inability to use subtitles or DVD menus. So if those problems are solved I could use mVR, but then I would need Reclock enhanced so I could choose which renderers use Reclock vsync correction and which do not!

leeperry

20th October 2009, 18:56

Jong

21st October 2009, 04:15

yeah, I know madshi said that...it's prolly true for joesixpacks running Vista/7+Aero and having 70 background processes in the back living their life :D

but on a heavily tweaked/light-weight(16 processes at boot up in low prio on single cores) XP SP3, there's just no occasional glitch to speak of :disagree:

and it even does gamut conversion on the fly, how cool is that!

ar-jar code is a mess, on nvidia cards at least...and I *hate* MPC anyway, I've seen it dropping frames randomly due to Casimir's crappy presenters FAR too many times, MPC is just not stable enough for Reclock use IMO...KMP crushes it, even w/ HR.

luckily, I don't really care for subs or DVD...and if I really need them ffdshow does subs, and KMP opens VOB's seamlessly..so it's a non-issue ;)I think the point madshi is making is regardless of how many processes you have running you just have very little time to do your processing without D3D. You are locked in step with the refresh rate, so especially when you start running at 120Hz it is tough! of course the more processing power (CPU AND GPU) you throw at it the less of an issue it is, but all the timings become soooo much more relaxed with exclusive mode.

On the issue of seemless VOB loading, you should try my copy of Oliver Stone's "W". That DVD has extras muxed into the main VOB group. The main movie starts two third's of the way into the second VOB! It is unplayable by loading the VOBs! if more DVDs start using this method of authoring you might need to remux DVDs before playing.

leeperry

21st October 2009, 06:34

well I never had any dropped frames in 96Hz(or 48 for that matter), it's just DEAD stable :)

I only watch old classics on DVD, and opening .IFO files doesn't allow Reclock to automatically detect the framerate...only seamless VOB's allow that, so it's a win-win...I've never opened DVD menus anyway.

Jong

21st October 2009, 08:45

Fair enough. :) Horses for courses!

leeperry

29th October 2009, 11:06

BTW, rolling IC op-amps is nice and all...but nothing beat discretes!

http://thumbnails21.imagebam.com/5405/154a0354044722.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/154a0354044722) http://thumbnails12.imagebam.com/5405/61b94454044729.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/61b94454044729) http://thumbnails13.imagebam.com/5405/168be854044736.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/168be854044736)

it's the exact same chip as the old burson, I can understand all the raving reviews at the bottom of this page: Burson Opamp (http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson_opamp.htm)

it sounds livelier than an OPA2132P w/ clearer trebles/*much* wider SS and more details overall, low end bass is slightly better too...I will let it burn a bit and then try the OPA-Moon later today, I could use more tubiness tbh.

next on the list is the Claro Halo XT...I'm sure it'll be great w/ 4 discrete op-amps, I'll prolly be making a big STX/HD2/Claro shoot out w/ a friend on head-fi.org

this should make Reclock oversampling shine hopefully :D

leeperry

29th October 2009, 17:23

woohah! this thing gives you goosebumps in stressy movies or live concerts, soundstage is so true-to-life :agree: ...talking about soundstage w/o having heard discrete op-amps is like trying to explain music to a deaf-born person...very impressive!

it's totally 3D, your brain can do his work at measuring delays and calculating distances...full 180 degrees SS FTW! I might put three of them like Marko did on his STX:

http://www.fotothing.com/photos/1d9/1d9a47c1cedbbdc75dfbac74269d93f6.jpg

PS: ah well, more are coming...two are cool too:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8850/hd2.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/hd2.jpg/)

leeperry

12th November 2009, 21:07

hummm, looks like James is busy on AnyDVD...so Reclock updates are put on hold :o

anyway! I really recommend playing around w/ discrete op-amps:

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/593/hdam.th.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/hdam.jpg/)

well, it's a night and day w/ even the best IC's(LT1028/AD797B/OPA2132)...it crushes them all!

you get a very warm/tubey sound w/ HUGE soundstage, powerful bass, natural trebles...goood gosh

I'm expecting a new Burson chip from Marko(the picture above w/ the huge white caps), it would be even better as final buffer...can't wait ^^

Reclock resampling is one thing, but playing it w/ nice op-amps is another story altogether.

I also tried the Claro Halo, but mmmmmmmeeh:

http://thumbnails24.imagebam.com/5541/ae209c55403738.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/ae209c55403738)

Jong

13th November 2009, 08:24

hummm, looks like James is busy on AnyDVD...so Reclock updates are put on hold :oMaybe Slyplayer is about to make an appearance! :)

leeperry

13th November 2009, 14:30

I'd rather pay for Reclock and see more active dev tbh(same goes for madVR) http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/befree.gif

I'm sure you know what I mean, considering you're as much of a Reclock freak as I am :D

I've been whining for oversampling since forever, James never took it seriously...and now that he said that he was OK to implement it, he's remained mute since then http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/valm.gif

but well, I can wait anyway...I'm having a blast w/ these discrete op-amps, I just hope that some day James will be kind enough to put my everlast whining into actions...I've tried 192kHz OS w/ yesgrey's3 DLL and it's *amazing* http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/otakonleboss.gif

leeperry

20th November 2009, 09:35

well, the aussies do it again!

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9881/hd2r.th.jpg (http://img524.imageshack.us/i/hd2r.jpg/)

that's this chip: Burson Opamp (http://www.bursonaudio.com/burson_opamp.htm)

it kills everything else in existence, Reclock never sounded this gooood http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/images/smilies/headshot.gif

PS: and "ChangeFPS(frameRate*2)" to get 48fps@48.000Hz is really cool stuff too!

too bad Reclock only recognizes 47.952/48/50fps and not 59.94, but I guess it's not the right time to annoy James w/ bug reports o/

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7558/86920121.png

James

20th November 2009, 12:29

I'd rather pay for Reclock and see more active dev tbh(same goes for madVR)

Ah, come on, compared to the "Ogo years" ReClock development was very active.

leeperry

20th November 2009, 13:29

Ah, come on, compared to the "Ogo years" ReClock development was very active.
sure thing, you did some stellar job! I truly didn't mean any disrespect http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/the%20bloodhound%20gang.gif

but I wouldn't mind paying $40 to get more frequent updates(like many other die hard Reclock fans here I'm sure)...like 192kHz upsampling and 59.94Hz built-in detection? I really crave for these two tbh http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6779/icecream.gif

I've recently upgraded to a killer quad CPU and discrete op-amps, so my only bottleneck is software at this point(and man, does 192kHz sound good! :eek:)..nothing's free in this world and Reclock well deserves some support, I fully understand that AnyDVD has the highest priority on your list.

if selling Reclock is not an option due to unmanageable support, how about some nice caps/tshirts and stuff :D

leeperry

25th November 2009, 19:53

don't ask me how I know, but HR 2.0 seems to have fixed jitter issues w/ Reclock.

http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/roi.gif

leeperry

26th November 2009, 18:57

indeed! w/ a 23.976 MKV file(1.5mbit DTS) in 48.000Hz, I've started at 3.5ms jitter and 45 mins later it had reached 4.8ms...so the friggin' jitter mumbo jumbo seems to have been solved :agree:

and I'm buying a killer headphones amp, so I'll be able to use my 100% bit-perfect drivers..as it's got a volume knob: Burson HA-160 Headphones Amplifier (http://www.partsconnexion.com/t/Index/bur_ha160.html)
now, if only we could have 192kHz oversampling in Reclock http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/nanou34.gif

leeperry

28th November 2009, 10:04

hummm Haali didn't touch the HR dll(date is still January 2009), he only tweaked his splitter..23.976 MKV w/ DTS has better jitter now, but w/ AC3 it's actually worse than before.

and it's nowhere near as smooth as mVR! also it won't do any color management, back to mVR FTW :agree:

and SQ really sucks in Reclock when you go from bit-perfect FLAC to 47952Hz resampling, but I'll stop whining.

leeperry

29th November 2009, 19:22

BTW, for sake of keeping this thread alive: Game Booster (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cowcotland.com%2Fnews %2F17431%2Frapide-test-du-logiciel-game-booster.html&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

it doesn't help THAT much on my trimmed down XP, but on some stock W7 this should prolly be killer to run Reclock :agree:

Jong

8th December 2009, 17:22

So I'm on W7 Pro now!

Can't believe how easy it was. Who designed it? Can't be any team involved in any other version of Windows surely!

I'm uisng the HDMI port on my 5750 to send LPCM (my amp cannot decode compressed HD audio). WASAPI only seems to work @16-bit, 24-bit and 32-bit are a no go. Any ideas?

At the moment I am using Directshow for LPCM ("stick to the defaults"). I've lost track of the whole 96khz situation. I know this is not supported officially but is there a "hacked" resampler that forces 96khz for all?

Any help very much appreciated!

leeperry

9th December 2009, 07:35

so what's so amazing? the moronic GUI that hogs the GPU, or the zillion useless background processes doing funky stuff in the back? :D

What annoys me w/ XP is that the VSYNC control is simply BROKEN...and getting a smooth movie in windowed mode takes more LUCK than anything else..frustating! but hopefully soon enough mVR will support D3D exclusive mode :)

there's a hacked resampling DLL for 96/192kHz oversampling, but there's additional delay for the audio(depending on the adaptation so it's not fixed, and a major PITA to deal w/), it doesn't work for 24fps@48Hz(all you get is stuttering 2X pitchshifted audio)...and James has left the ship, so good luck w/ that :doh:

Jong

9th December 2009, 07:45

OK. Thanks. I knew you would have the answer,even if a disappointing one.

leeperry

9th December 2009, 07:47

care to explain why W7 is so amazing? 8)

I thought Aero would just screw things up even further?

Jong

9th December 2009, 08:16

Both PDVD and MPC-HC disable Aero, so they are unaffected.

Aero does fix tearing in Flash video so makes BBC iPlayer and other online video watchable, especially with the new 10.1 beta with GPU acceleration.

WPF is so much smoother than on XP and also tear free. Good because it is used by meediOS, my HTPC front-end.

The UI is a whole lot better than XP or Vista IMO. So many nice little touches. Probably all copied off Apple, but still. Oh. and it is noticeable quicker than Vista AND XP. things like task switching seem to work better. Scheduling seems improved.

My main surprise though was how easy it went on. Installed in a fraction of the time of Vista. I did not have to install any drivers myself - it found them all behind the scenes and silently installed them. All my apps went on without a hitch. Just no issues at all; a positively pleasant experience, which I have never, ever known with a Windows installation before. :)

Jong

9th December 2009, 08:20

Oh... and what pushed me into it in the first place, I could not get 7.1 channel LPCM out of my 5750 on XP. The drivers are maybe just broken. Increasingly when you flag therse things you get a kind of shrug of "Oh that's probably an XP thing .... hmm, might look at that one day when all else in the world is peachy". You can feel them turn off. It was just time.

leeperry

9th December 2009, 08:20

WPF? isn't that linked w/ .net 3.0?

so what about EVR or mVR in MPC/KMP? coz on XP it takes a friggin miracle to get a movie smooth for more than 1H in windowed mode :bang:

if I ever make the W7 switch, I'd like to be sure that this VSYNC control issue has been adressed...but well, it had already been fixed in Vista I think. HPET helps a lot for realtime use, XP relies on worthless legacy timers :(

and there's zillions of background processes?!?! Vista was terrible for that.

Jong

9th December 2009, 08:28

Well I am using EVR CP in D3D mode with Reclock vsync correction. Don't know if it is needed but why mess with a good thing IMO. I can precsiely move the presetation point using the Reclock vsync slider and I trust Reclock to keep it there. It works and it makes me feel safe!

All I can say on processes is so far I have not messed with any (other than the blatent PDVD bloatware) and all seems perfect. I have not seen a stutter yet, although it is early days and I am sure, like any version of Windows, it will occasionally decide to throw a fit!

Yes, latest WPF comes with .net 3.5, which is included in W7.

leeperry

9th December 2009, 08:45

yeah OK, I guess windowed mode must be far better handled than in XP anyway..there's many VSYNC lock mechanisms in Vista, so it's prolly been improved even further in 7.

leeperry

9th December 2009, 09:36

maybe I could try Reclock's VSYNC correction on XP w/ mVR+KMP...how do you choose the right position again?

Jong

9th December 2009, 09:56

Well the MPC jitter charts really help! Especially Gothsync, but the standard EVR CP version works too once you get used to it. On the face of it this won't help with mVR and KMP, but I found generally if you position as far away from the next sync in Gothsync, which perversely seems to be presented as as close as possible to the previous vsync in normal EVR CP(!) it works in all players and for all renderers. If you cut it finer then you might find mVR (for example) might have problems because its advanced processing might take longer to complete.

@20ms frame time (50Hz) I set so the upper boundary of the Reclock vsync region is @~-16ms (Gothsync) or -4ms ("normal" EVR CP). The 4ms is to allow for the "natural variability" in presentation due to timers etc. You could probably cut it donw to 3ms or so if you really nedded to, but not much more I think.

Use 1.8.4.9 so you get the smaller vsync target zone. About a quarter to a third of the way from the left works for me.

leeperry

9th December 2009, 22:46

hah Jong, you do sound like a very sane person :D

ok thanks, maybe I'll look into it if things worsen up...but so far I've applied the K.I.S.S. principle: KMP w/ its built-in MKV splitter, I've left "disable tearing fix" unchecked in mVR(otherwise I get some weird artefacts from time to time), I've also left the nvidia drivers default options.

the only thing I've done is disabling "combined writing" in the XP video troubleshoot options...and I do get stutter-free video playback for 90' in a row :)

I suspect HMS, this splitter seems as jittery(especially on 23.976 MKV) as HR I'm afraid :mad:

mitchmalibu

12th December 2009, 23:11

Hi, Just a quick question concerning my htpc setup, not really reclock related.

I do have a small question concerning the PC / TV levels side. I'm currently using an ati hd4850 to output to a panasonic plasma. Reading madshi preamble, I chose the limited rgb setting in the ati ccc as a pixel format since the display is a tv (supposedly 16-235). However when I use that setting, I get grayish blacks (on the desktop as well as on the player blacks top and bottom bars) and the colors aren't vivid. However, if i choose full rgb, the blacks are fine. Do I have to assume that my tv automatically uses pc levels and if plugged to a pc (which would seem weird) ?

Thanks for any feedback.

James

12th December 2009, 23:17

Mark_A_W

12th December 2009, 23:30

Don't forget that you may need to adjust the brightness control.

mitchmalibu

13th December 2009, 07:45

Thanks for your help. From what I tried, using YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2 allows deep black, but limited rgb will only display grayish blacks unless I use ridiculous settings on my tv brightness / contrasts controls.

Too bad that kind of information is so hard to find, nothing in the manual nor on the official site.

leeperry

13th December 2009, 08:26

mitchmalibu

13th December 2009, 09:23

I don't really have the time or the money to properly calibrate my display (I'm a student so money is scarce) but I did set it up to be as close as possible to D65 and I was able to set my gamma to 2.2. As long as I'm happy with the picture my tv displays, I'll live without perfect calibration :)

Thanks for your input !

leeperry

13th December 2009, 09:50

np ;)

you can get a second hand Spyder2 for really cheap if you look well, it's not perfect but for USD50 or so..that's a no-brainer.

Jong

13th December 2009, 10:13

mitchmalibu

14th December 2009, 16:31

from what i read, the 0-255 to 16-235 conversion depends on the dvi to hdmi dongle you use :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14370685#post14370685

I ended up using full rgb as a pixel format and pc levels on madvr. It looks good and no signs of crushed blacks so far. And as James said, looks like my plasma automatically uses pc levels when it's being fed rgb.

leeperry

14th December 2009, 16:53

don't mention the ATi HDMI dongle to Jong, it gives him cold sweat :D

mitchmalibu

14th December 2009, 16:59

too late :p (and I can imagine how someone would get mad trying to find a solution to this without knowing that the answer lies in a dongle :bang:)

leeperry

14th December 2009, 17:04

and especially if all those double lossy conversions are done in 8bit...it's never been cleared out I think.

James

14th December 2009, 17:11

The ATI drivers automatically compress full RGB back to video levels when going over HDMI, whether RGB or YCbCr. So with RGB you get an extra level of compression if you use limited RGB. So YCbCr or RGB full is the way to go. It is not black and whit which will be better for you - depends on your display etc. so try the two YCbCr options and the full RGB option and if you can see any difference at all choose which you prefer.

Stupid ATI ... they don't allow YCBR for 1080p24. And all Catalysts > 9.5 have completely broken video levels anyway. I have a 5770 card but I can't use it, as it doesn't work with Catalyst 9.5.

Jong

14th December 2009, 17:37

My levels are fine with 9.11 and 5750 (W7-32). That is they are consistent SD & HD and at video levels. Lose BTB and WTW but personally I do not lose too much sleep over that.

Jong

14th December 2009, 17:39

from what i read, the 0-255 to 16-235 conversion depends on the dvi to hdmi dongle you use :
I assumed we were all using cards with HDMI sockets on them now. But, yes, if using DVI-out you need to use the RIGHT ATI dongle!:bang:

leeperry

14th December 2009, 17:57

I assumed we were all using cards with HDMI sockets on them now. But, yes, if using DVI-out you need to use the RIGHT ATI dongle!:bang:
I made sure to avoid that funky dongle on my ex-3850, and I was getting untouched full range RGB over DVI AFAIK...but well, I guess only YCbCr and limited RGB are problematic.

James

14th December 2009, 19:07

My levels are fine with 9.11 and 5750 (W7-32). That is they are consistent SD & HD and at video levels. Lose BTB and WTW but personally I do not lose too much sleep over that.

You never play anything at 24fps?

EDIT:
Let me rephrase that: You never use 1080p24? If I do, video levels are wrong, even if I revert to 1080p60. Until the next reboot... :bang:

leeperry

13th January 2010, 15:52

humm, one thing I fail to understand is that -w/ the EXACT same custom 1280*768 48.000Hz timings- I sometimes have a 5ms delay diff. between my HC3100 pj(connected in DVI>HDMI) and my CRT(connected in VGA)...I also tried two different brands of 19" CRT(Liteon/iiyama)..the sound on the CRT is often 5ms too late(I use headphones so there's no delay between speakers and my ears).

and sometimes seeking several times gets the audio back in sync on the pj, and it ends up just like on the CRT...drivers using different real world timings and Reclock not detecting it? Rik Wang from the pstrip techsupport already said that VGA and DVI cannot possibly use the same actual timings.

I should prolly try slightly different timings on both so Reclock doesn't hiccup :o

Jong

13th January 2010, 16:01

You never play anything at 24fps?

EDIT:
Let me rephrase that: You never use 1080p24? If I do, video levels are wrong, even if I revert to 1080p60. Until the next reboot... :bang:Sorry, I missed this post completely.

That explains it, no, my display does not do 24p. I currently speed up all 24p material to 25fps and display @50Hz.

James

13th January 2010, 19:28

Sorry, I missed this post completely.

That explains it, no, my display does not do 24p. I currently speed up all 24p material to 25fps and display @50Hz.

It looks like Catalyst 9.12 fixed this problem (while introducing some new ones, of course). I hope it'll stay that way....

el Filou

14th January 2010, 17:33

You may wanna calibrate your display anyway(D65 white point/2.3 gamma curves/SMPTE-C gamut)...send full range RGB whenever possible, otherwise the crappy onboard circuits will do the conversions for you...and it'll be ugly(my HC3100 works internally in full range, and TV range input looks terrible).
Well, for that you must first make sure what mode your display prefers, and that's not always obvious. For example I've got a CRT with HDMI (yeah, I know, I bought the last of the dinosaurs...) and even though it's hard to believe because you would think all displays prefer RGB, it exhibits severe banding with every input colour space except YCbCr 4:2:2 (which is hard to understand as RGB in analog looks fine of course).
It's OK when you plug a CE video player, but not with an HTPC.
Oh and thanks to ATI I have to calibrate it for full range values even though it expects YCbCr to be limited range, so that kills the gamma also. :bang:

I thought TVs always prefered displaying TV levels (seems pretty obvious why to me), not full range?
Knowing them manufacturers and their tricks, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pannys you're talking about just converted back to limited range before sending to the panel, even though they expect full range on the RGB input.
Anyway, I'm quite interested as my next big purchase is probably a Panny too. :D

BTW, KMP and its built-in MKV splitter really work like a treat w/ mVR on XP SP3...I can watch a 2H movie w/o a single glitch(tried half a dozen movies already). HMS is a jitter feast, I can fully confirm(Haali doesn't use nor care about Reclock :mad:)
I don't like to bash, as Haali's splitter has been really useful in the past, but it seems to me he doesn't care about anything now except working for CoreAVC.
I was expecting a major overhaul for his first new release nearly a year in the making, but it still stutters like hell with every HD source, M2TS support isn't anywhere near MPC's one, and it looks like it's the buggiest release ever.
Well, it's freeware and closed source, which reminds me of our other discussion. :)

The ATI drivers automatically compress full RGB back to video levels when going over HDMI, whether RGB or YCbCr.
Are you on Vista/7 ?
For me on XP (with the dongle) it's just the opposite: it outputs everything full range except RGB Limited.

leeperry

15th January 2010, 08:18

I've seen some CRT's w/ DVI for sale, 21" from IBM...but well, anything >19" is just not manageable to move around.

yes, getting rid of Haali's broken code was the best decision I had taken in a loooooooong time...all of a sudden everything works damn fine, so much for blaming XP's VSYNC code huh.

Jong

15th January 2010, 08:47

Are you on Vista/7 ?
For me on XP (with the dongle) it's just the opposite: it outputs everything full range except RGB Limited.Actually I had a brainstorm there. That was the situation a long time ago, with the dongle, before they introduced their pixel format settings. Now you can set it as you wish.

However, I do not see the same as you on XP or W7. RGB is selectable. YCbCr uses video levels, as you would expect/hope. Are your sure your amp is not converting YCbCr to RGB full?

el Filou

15th January 2010, 21:52

Actually I had a brainstorm there. That was the situation a long time ago, with the dongle, before they introduced their pixel format settings. Now you can set it as you wish.

However, I do not see the same as you on XP or W7. RGB is selectable. YCbCr uses video levels, as you would expect/hope. Are your sure your amp is not converting YCbCr to RGB full?
No no, I tried everything as it was driving me mad: with the video processing on and off in the amp and directly into the TV, tried many drivers between 9.1 and 9.12 with full cleaning before each, the situation is always the same: YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2 and RGB Full always output full range, only RGB Limited correctly output limited range.
I think the HDMI specs mandate that all YCbCr must use Limited and same with all RGB for standard TV resolutions, only VGA and computer resolutions being allowed to use Full, but maybe the culprit is my TV? :confused:
Anyway I've given up on that as there is nothing I can do to change it.
I'll look into it again when I'll change the TV, I'm all into audio now. :)

Jong

16th January 2010, 06:08

Very odd/ I have never had a problem with YCbCr using the wrong levels.

Yes, from the work we did some months ago over at AVS Forums I beleive you are right. HDMI mandates video levels for all but 640x480 resolution (legacy), where full range is mandated.

Full levels are OK if it thinks it has a DVI device attached though.

leeperry

21st January 2010, 17:04

BTW, free flac's available here(nice to test Reclock and all :D): http://wutangvsthebeatles.bandcamp.com

Wu Tang meets The Beatles, it sounds *killer* http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/stylken.gif

PS: track 11 really cracks me up, Raekwon on the "can't buy me love" melody played w/ a musicbox hah

leeperry

24th January 2010, 14:59

hah, I think I've found the reason of my random pops for good this time :rolleyes:

there's 2 options in my P5k Premium mobo:

CPU clock skew : auto.
NB clock skew : auto.

I tried to move them from "auto" to "normal" and it seemed to be flooding my soundcard w/ EMI...I could never get a "black" background as before, always some pops and whatnot..mostly related to the graphic card's activity.

if that's indeed the culprit, I'm not touching anything anymore! apparently that's also the way "Spread Spectrum" works...killing spikes to reduce EMI.

somy

24th January 2010, 15:02

and especially if all those double lossy conversions are done in 8bit...it's never been cleared out I think.

Just tried CCC 9.12, and it seems that even with ATI dongle it now can output untouched YV12 0-255 to my projector. Strange, as I recall I can never get 0/255 output from my ATI 4850 before.

leeperry

24th January 2010, 15:39

Just tried CCC 9.12, and it seems that even with ATI dongle it now can output untouched YV12 0-255 to my projector. Strange, as I recall I can never get 0/255 output from my ATI 4850 before.
the YCbCr conversion happens after the RGB32 output from the video renderer...and many displays also work in RGB internally, outputting YCbCr usually means going through 2 useless lossy conversions(w/ the risk of 601/709 hiccups on upscaled SD :D)

ouuuuh, I'm running 438MHz FSB(8x on a Q9450)...apparently setting these two options to "normal" instead of "auto" was indeed a TERRIBLE idea: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602375
The default skews are fine within AGTL+ FSB spec. Problem is AGTL+ (advanced gunning transceiver logic) has a design limitation of 400mhz BCLK (400mhz fsb) and past this it is impossible to keep within original spec and guarantee 100% reliable operation.

somy

24th January 2010, 15:44

the YCbCr conversion happens after the RGB32 output from the video renderer...and many displays also work in RGB internally, outputting YCbCr usually means going through 2 useless lossy conversions(w/ the risk of 601/709 hiccups on upscaled SD :D)

ouuuuh, I'm running 438FSB(8x on a Q9450)...apparently setting these two options to "normal" instead of "auto" was indeed a TERRIBLE idea: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602375

Well, if ATI claims xvYCC works, then they must make some shortcut for PowerDVD. When I try to play my test blu-ray disk(0-255) in powerDVD, it now output 0-255 to my projector. Before 9.12, I can never make 4850 output 0-255 (I think it's because the dongle tells the driver to do RGB->YCC conversion), so I assume now it supports YCC output without letting renderer convert YCC ->RGB then dongle convert RGB->YCC.

leeperry

24th January 2010, 15:49

I assume now it supports YCC output without letting renderer convert YCC ->RGB then dongle convert RGB->YCC.
AFAIK the video renderer back buffer is RGB32 by design...on XP at least :p

somy

24th January 2010, 15:52

AFAIK the video renderer back buffer is RGB32 by design...on XP at least :p
OK, seems we cannot get rid of YUC.RGB if that's the case.

somy

24th January 2010, 15:55

AFAIK the video renderer back buffer is RGB32 by design...on XP at least :p

By the way, it seems to me that my projector does another YUC/RGB conversion.........:bang::bang::bang:

leeperry

24th January 2010, 16:00

it seems to me that my projector does another YUC/RGB conversion
which one is it? mine has both options, but I'm quite sure that its DDP3020 DLP chip works in RGB...and so does my PC, as madVR's job is to convert to RGB32 as accurately as possible(which then goes through a lossy RGB24 TMDS encoding :p)

somy

24th January 2010, 16:07

which one is it? mine has both options, but I'm quite sure that its DDP3020 DLP chip works in RGB...and so does my PC, as madVR's job is to convert to RGB32 as accurately as possible(which then goes through a lossy RGB24 TMDS encoding :p)

Mine is panny AE3000, since it's a 3LCD projector, I guess it works internally with RGB. I tried to read the manual through, but I couldn't find anything thing that is relevant to RGB/YUC..
Today I did a comparason between MadVR and EVR Sync (now with auto refresh rate change in MPC-HC, amazing!). I use high quality YUC/RGB conversion in FFDShow so that I don't need MadVR for chroma, and guess what, I'm satisfied, much smoother than MadVR and not too bad picture quality. I believe introduction of Sync render in MPC-HC breaks MadVR though.

James

24th January 2010, 16:21

Well, if ATI claims xvYCC works, then they must make some shortcut for PowerDVD. When I try to play my test blu-ray disk(0-255) in powerDVD, it now output 0-255 to my projector. Before 9.12, I can never make 4850 output 0-255 (I think it's because the dongle tells the driver to do RGB->YCC conversion), so I assume now it supports YCC output without letting renderer convert YCC ->RGB then dongle convert RGB->YCC.

No, it's because 9.6 - 9.11 were all broken. :bang:

somy

24th January 2010, 16:27

No, it's because 9.6 - 9.11 were all broken. :bang:

Hi James, I know ATI messed up black-level with CCC 9.6 - 9.11, but it's not my point. We all know ATI's HDMI dongle outputs YUC 16-235 (it must do some RGB/YUC convert) all the time no matter what pixel format you choose in CCC, but with CCC 9.12 if I choose YCrCb 4:4:4 I do get 0-255 output from PowerDVD (yes, I have a test blu-ray to genertae 0-255 and I can monitor input lum from my projector), that's strange, isn't it? This only works if YCrCb is chosen, RGB 4:4:4 only output 16-235 correctly(which is what they messed with in CCC 9.6-9.11). This makes me to think weather PowerDVD can output YCrCb directly to my projector:rock::rock::rock:

leeperry

24th January 2010, 16:31

I use high quality YUC/RGB conversion in FFDShow so that I don't need MadVR for chroma, and guess what, I'm satisfied, much smoother than MadVR and not too bad picture quality. I believe introduction of Sync render in MPC-HC breaks MadVR though.
yep, but it's a CPU hog...mVR does it all through your GPU, together w/ CoreAVC CUDA it leaves a lot of headroom CPU-wise.

well, what happens if you feed RGB to your pj?

I don't use MPC-HC, can't comment...KMP 4ever <3

somy

24th January 2010, 16:56

yep, but it's a CPU hog...mVR does it all through your GPU, together w/ CoreAVC CUDA it leaves a lot of headroom CPU-wise.

well, what happens if you feed RGB to your pj?

I don't use MPC-HC, can't comment...KMP 4ever <3

ATI dongle will convert RGB to YUC, only get 16-235 output.

leeperry

24th January 2010, 19:14

ATI dongle will convert RGB to YUC, only get 16-235 output.
haha yes, I was using a DVI/HDMI cable so I didn't have to suffer all the stuff ATi thought was good for us.

it was such a relief when I got rid of pstrip, their retarded Visual Basic drivers(and their 3 resident apps) to move to the green side of the force....native custom res support, no resident apps, CUDA, sharper PQ on both my HC3100 and my 19" CRT.

and the first ATi card I bought was an HD2600XT from Sapphire, but their engineers undervolted the GPU in 2D...I had to dig really deep on a chinese forum to find a fixed BIOS that would indeed feed 1.25V in 2D and not crash the card randomly at idle(black screen, end of story)....Sapphire, haha never again! :disagree:

el Filou

24th January 2010, 20:34

We all know ATI's HDMI dongle outputs YUC 16-235 (it must do some RGB/YUC convert) all the time no matter what pixel format you choose in CCC
From where do we know that?
I admit I've given up on those stories over at AVSForum a long time ago because there was no consistency in the issues, but my ATI with the dongle and Cat. 9.11 (XP, 4650) certainly doesn't output YCC 16-235 all the time, it outputs the correct pixel format I tell it to output, except YCbCr is full range when it should be limited (I'm talking about the actual useful picture data, i.e. the desktop black should be at 16 and it's at 0).
Or dod I misunderstood what you said?

but with CCC 9.12 if I choose YCrCb 4:4:4 I do get 0-255 output from PowerDVD (yes, I have a test blu-ray to genertae 0-255 and I can monitor input lum from my projector), that's strange, isn't it?
Do you mean BTB and WTW is now preserved from the decoder output right until the HDMI output? That would be marvelous! :bowdown:
Damn and I decided to stop updating drivers at 9.11 because I had lost hope... will try 10.1 when it comes out. :D

This only works if YCrCb is chosen, RGB 4:4:4 only output 16-235 correctly(which is what they messed with in CCC 9.6-9.11).
Could you be more clear with that? What happens with YCbCr 4:2:2?

This makes me to think weather PowerDVD can output YCrCb directly to my projector
Mmmh, wouldn't be so optimistic. Like leeperry I don't think the internal video routines of ATI work in YCC. It's perfectly possible to ouput YCC with BTB and WTW even if the drivers convert to RGB and back.

el Filou

24th January 2010, 20:40

Sapphire, haha never again! :disagree:
With you on that one! I had a X1300 from Sapphire that gave corrupted graphics when booting/coming out of standby 30% of the time. The bad joke was they released a BIOS update to fix the same problem for another X1300 model with different RAM, but not for mine, and they never listened to my complaints.

The 4650s with missing deinterlacing options were also from them (flashing a HIS BIOS fixed it).

To think that they are(/were?) ATI's main card manufacturer... :(

somy

25th January 2010, 03:34

haha yes, I was using a DVI/HDMI cable so I didn't have to suffer all the stuff ATi thought was good for us.

it was such a relief when I got rid of pstrip, their retarded Visual Basic drivers(and their 3 resident apps) to move to the green side of the force....native custom res support, no resident apps, CUDA, sharper PQ on both my HC3100 and my 19" CRT.

and the first ATi card I bought was an HD2600XT from Sapphire, but their engineers undervolted the GPU in 2D...I had to dig really deep on a chinese forum to find a fixed BIOS that would indeed feed 1.25V in 2D and not crash the card randomly at idle(black screen, end of story)....Sapphire, haha never again! :disagree:

I cannot use a DVI/HDMI cable because I need audio streamed over HDMI to my AMP......
But if you don't use ATI HDMI dongle, it's correct that you're not restricted by only outputting 16-235 YUC.

somy

25th January 2010, 03:44

From where do we know that?
I admit I've given up on those stories over at AVSForum a long time ago because there was no consistency in the issues, but my ATI with the dongle and Cat. 9.11 (XP, 4650) certainly doesn't output YCC 16-235 all the time, it outputs the correct pixel format I tell it to output, except YCbCr is full range when it should be limited (I'm talking about the actual useful picture data, i.e. the desktop black should be at 16 and it's at 0).
Or dod I misunderstood what you said?

Do you mean BTB and WTW is now preserved from the decoder output right until the HDMI output? That would be marvelous! :bowdown:
Damn and I decided to stop updating drivers at 9.11 because I had lost hope... will try 10.1 when it comes out. :D

Could you be more clear with that? What happens with YCbCr 4:2:2?

Mmmh, wouldn't be so optimistic. Like leeperry I don't think the internal video routines of ATI work in YCC. It's perfectly possible to ouput YCC with BTB and WTW even if the drivers convert to RGB and back.

Do you use the official ATI HDMI dongle that also gives you sound over HDMI?

Yes, I can confirm the BTW and WTW is reserved if you play in PowerDVD, it outputs 0-255 and you need to set your TV/PJ to accept 16-235. This works if you set pixel format to YCbCr 4:4:4, I assume this works when you use DXVA in any player(which means 0-16 and 235-255 will NOT be cut off by ATI).
I didn't try it yet, but I guess it also works with 4:2:2. I tried RGB, and it only output 16-235.
I use the greyscale test pattern from AVSForum, and the image quality produced in PowerDVD is at the same level as FFDshow+MadVR, I don't know if this suggests anything :bowdown::bowdown: