options when you want a plain/clean dd/dts signal to amp.

[sanderh]

I own a very good amplifier (Marantz AV8003/MM8003) that has outstanding dd/dts decoding on-board.

What do I need to do (in ReClock) to ONLY pass the signal to my amp.? And which is better: keep my Nvidia 7600GS videocard and separate audiocard with digital coaxial output or switch to a ATI 4XXX HD card? Are there less chances of lypsync issues with a 4XXX HD card (because of the fact that audio and video is than send through the same cable?).

thxz

[James]

I own a very good amplifier (Marantz AV8003/MM8003) that has outstanding dd/dts decoding on-board.

What do I need to do (in ReClock) to ONLY pass the signal to my amp.? And which is better: keep my Nvidia 7600GS videocard and separate audiocard with digital coaxial output or switch to a ATI 4XXX HD card? Are there less chances of lypsync issues with a 4XXX HD card (because of the fact that audio and video is than send through the same cable?).

thxz
My opinion:
If you insist on letting the amp decode - don't use ReClock.

You are in Holland? Watching PAL DVDs?
Here's why you need ReClock: http://www.schmidt-web.info/malte/english.html

If you haven't noticed, you don't deserve "a very good amplifier". ;)

I suggest to let the PC decode and send multi channel PCM via the 4XXX HD card to your receiver.

[sanderh]

pfff, this reply is too much for my as I don t understand it really. Can you explain it again and a little more specific if possible?

thxz

[cbemoore]

ReClock *always* modifies your audio signal. (If you read the Readme.rtf, you'll understand why). So if you don't want the audio signal to be modified, don't use ReClock.

Having said that, there are different ways to configure ReClock, so that it modifies your audio signal in different ways. See this (http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=142577&postcount=5) post for details, and use whichever method you prefer.

[Jong]

My opinion:
If you insist on letting the amp decode - don't use ReClock.

You are in Holland? Watching PAL DVDs?
Here's why you need ReClock: http://www.schmidt-web.info/malte/english.html

If you haven't noticed, you don't deserve "a very good amplifier". ;)James, don't most PAL DVDs have pitch correction already applied these days? I thought they did, but maybe I am wrong? :confused:

[James]

pfff, this reply is too much for my as I don t understand it really. Can you explain it again and a little more specific if possible?

thxz
ReClock needs to modify your audio for full effect (sync adjustment 23.976 -> 24fps, 25->24fps) PAL Speedup reversal, etc.
This works only on PCM. Not SPDIF. Please read the manual.

[James]

James, don't most PAL DVDs have pitch correction already applied these days? I thought they did, but maybe I am wrong? :confused:

You are wrong. Most PAL DVDs *don't* have pitch correction applied. Only very few have.

EDIT:
And that's a "good thing(tm)", otherwise ReClock cannot easily correct the mess, if you want to playback the movie with the correct speed. If a movie is supposed to play 2 hours, it really should play 2 hours. Not about 5 minutes(!) less.

[Jong]

ReClock *always* modifies your audio signal. (If you read the Readme.rtf, you'll understand why). So if you don't want the audio signal to be modified, don't use ReClock.

Having said that, there are different ways to configure ReClock, so that it modifies your audio signal in different ways. See this (http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=142577&postcount=5) post for details, and use whichever method you prefer.I know I have debated this quite a few times already, but I do disagree. You can and should use Reclock if you wish to use s/pdif and are prepared to make sure your display timings are EXACTLY the same as the media you are playing. Then you get the benefits of Reclock's clock smoothing/synchronisation AND bitstreamed output.

I appreciate this rules out most users, but it is possible. And then 5% latency for s/pdif works perfectly ;)

However, I do sincerely doubt these days that any amp has noticeably better DD/DTS decoding than available on a PC. After All this is a pure digital conversion, it does not involve the D to A converters of your amp which are used in either case.

[Jong]

You are wrong. Most PAL DVDs *don't* have pitch correction applied. Only very few have.

EDIT:
And that's a "good thing(tm)", otherwise ReClock cannot easily correct the mess, if you want to playback the movie with the correct speed. If a movie is supposed to play 2 hours, it really should play 2 hours. Not about 5 minutes(!) less.
OK. I certainly bow to your superior exposure to all the discs out there! :bowdown:

[cbemoore]

I know I have debated this quite a few times already, but I do disagree. You can and should use Reclock if you wish to use s/pdif and are prepared to make sure your display timings are EXACTLY the same as the media you are playing. Then you get the benefits of Reclock's clock smoothing/synchronisation AND bitstreamed output.

I appreciate this rules out most users, but it is possible. And then 5% latency for s/pdif works perfectly ;)

However, I do sincerely doubt these days that any amp has noticeably better DD/DTS decoding than available on a PC. After All this is a pure digital conversion, it does not involve the D to A converters of your amp which are used in either case.

I completely agree with you - I've got ReClock set up in exactly the same way as you!

But even if I set my display timings as accurately as possible, I still get an occasional dropped or repeated AC3 frame. It doesn't happen very often, and I can't hear it when it does happen. But it still means that ReClock is modifying the audio stream.....

[Jong]

It depends on how good you get your timings. I get 1 or less dropped packets per movie, never more - totally inaudible. With s/pdif and good timings you get as close to not messing with the audio stream as possible - all packets sent are untouched, but some (depending on your timings) are dropped or repeated.

[sanderh]

So you do not use PAL-speeddown Jong? (because you CANNOT use it am I correct?)

[cbemoore]

So you do not use PAL-speeddown Jong? (because you CANNOT use it am I correct?)

Correct...

[cbemoore]

It depends on how good you get your timings. I get 1 or less dropped packets per movie, never more - totally inaudible. With s/pdif and good timings you get as close to not messing with the audio stream as possible - all packets sent are untouched, but some (depending on your timings) are dropped or repeated.

Over the course of a movie, I tend to get about 10 dropped and 10 repeated frames. I don't think changing my refresh rate will help, because if I get less dropped frames I'll get more repeated frames (and vice versa). It looks like your clocks are more stable than mine!

[sanderh]

pffff, I m not understanding this anymore (always thought I quite understand ReClock :().

Ok, so let s get into this a little bit further (to make it more understandable for me):

I use the AC3filter, MPC, ReClock. In AC3 filter I have set the properties to AS IS. Am I correct that AC3filter with this setting DOES NOTHING (no decoding or whatsoever) with the signal? (Only thing he does is make it possible to 'read' the 5.1 signal out of a .mkv or .wmv file?).

After this the signal goes to ReClock and ReClock 'corrects' it (depending on what signal is presented and what custom res. I custom made with Powerstrip).

After this the signal (still not decoded?) goes to my AMP and THERE the decoding takes place?

[cbemoore]

pffff, I m not understanding this anymore (always thought I quite understand ReClock :().

Ok, so let s get into this a little bit further (to make it more understandable for me):

I use the AC3filter, MPC, ReClock. In AC3 filter I have set the properties to AS IS. Am I correct that AC3filter with this setting DOES NOTHING (no decoding or whatsoever) with the signal? (Only thing he does is make it possible to 'read' the 5.1 signal out of a .mkv or .wmv file?).

After this the signal goes to ReClock and ReClock 'corrects' it (depending on what signal is presented and what custom res. I custom made with Powerstrip).

After this the signal (still not decoded?) goes to my AMP and THERE the decoding takes place?

If you feed an AC3 (ie DD or DTS) signal into ReClock, then ReClock will adjust your audio timings by dropping or repeating AC3 frames. This will *NOT* modify the pitch, so ReClock won't be able to do any pitch correction. The AC3 signal will then be sent on to your amp, and decoded there.

[sanderh]

ok, next 2 questions :):

What is better to use: my current setup with a separate video card and separate audio card with digital coaxial output or a new ATI HD 4XXX HD card with dd/dts streaming over hdmi supported? Or no difference?
I ask thing question because I CAN image that the last option could be better because than you have both audio and video signal running through the same cable. (no less change to get lypsync troubles).

How do I find out if my display ACTUALLY supports 23,976 and 25,000Hz (or 47,952 and 50Hz)? I ve read somewhere that James (or someone else) states that it can be that a display device DISPLAYS a picture but actually cannot handle with it.

I ask this because I have troubles (stuttering) playing at 1920x1080@47,952Hz (via Powerstrip)

[Jong]

ok, next 2 questions :):

What is better to use: my current setup with a separate video card and separate audio card with digital coaxial output or a new ATI HD 4XXX HD card with dd/dts streaming over hdmi supported? Or no difference?
I ask thing question because I CAN image that the last option could be better because than you have both audio and video signal running through the same cable. (no less change to get lypsync troubles).

How do I find out if my display ACTUALLY supports 23,976 and 25,000Hz (or 47,952 and 50Hz)? I ve read somewhere that James (or someone else) states that it can be that a display device DISPLAYS a picture but actually cannot handle with it.

I ask this because I have troubles (stuttering) playing at 1920x1080@47,952Hz (via Powerstrip)I would say most PAL TVs cannot handle 47.952Hz. If it specifically says it takes a 24p input you can use that, but generally 48Hz (47.952) is a no no.

If you are playing 23.976 material with Reclock @47.952 and you are getting stutter then that is most likely the problem. Then you want to:

- decode audio before it reaches Reclock, uisng your player's settings or AC3Filter
- set yout display to 50Hz
- make sure video settings allow for 5% speedup
- tick "enable audio timestretching" and "when speeding up media"

This will speed up the movie to 50Hz but correct the pitch, so voices (and indeed all audio) are not "chipmunked".

[James]

ok, next 2 questions :):

What is better to use: my current setup with a separate video card and separate audio card with digital coaxial output or a new ATI HD 4XXX HD card with dd/dts streaming over hdmi supported? Or no difference?

Sorry, but do I have to repeat it over and over again?
Use the ATI 4xxxx card and output multi channel (2/6/8) PCM to your amp.
Do NOT use dd/dts streaming with ReClock if you don't have to.

[James]

ok, next 2 questions :):

What is better to use: my current setup with a separate video card and separate audio card with digital coaxial output or a new ATI HD 4XXX HD card with dd/dts streaming over hdmi supported? Or no difference?
I ask thing question because I CAN image that the last option could be better because than you have both audio and video signal running through the same cable. (no less change to get lypsync troubles).

How do I find out if my display ACTUALLY supports 23,976 and 25,000Hz (or 47,952 and 50Hz)? I ve read somewhere that James (or someone else) states that it can be that a display device DISPLAYS a picture but actually cannot handle with it.

I ask this because I have troubles (stuttering) playing at 1920x1080@47,952Hz (via Powerstrip)
As a general rule, if you use a digital display... don't use SPDIF, don't use PowerStrip, use standard timings. Like the timings provided by the graphics card, e.g. 24/25/50/60fps.

[sanderh]

I would say most PAL TVs cannot handle 47.952Hz. If it specifically says it takes a 24p input you can use that, but generally 48Hz (47.952) is a no no.

You say that most PAL tv's cannot handle 47,952Hz. But, isn t it so that digital projectors are more advanced in this? I ve read on the AVS forums somewhere that almost all new digital projectors can handle most frequencies.

- decode audio before it reaches Reclock, uisng your player's settings or AC3Filter
but in this scenario, I cannot use my digital coaxial output anymore correct?

- set yout display to 50Hz
I cannot SET my display device to anything, a digital projector detects the freq. automatically. Maybe you mean output a custom res. with Powestrip of 1920x1080@50Hz?

[Jong]

You say that most PAL tv's cannot handle 47,952Hz. But, isn t it so that digital projectors are more advanced in this? I ve read on the AVS forums somewhere that almost all new digital projectors can handle most frequencies.


but in this scenario, I cannot use my digital coaxial output anymore correct?


I cannot SET my display device to anything, a digital projector detects the freq. automatically. Maybe you mean output a custom res. with Powestrip of 1920x1080@50Hz?If you are not getting stutter great. if you are try 50hz. I genuinely have no idea if your pj supports 47.952. If you have to use pstrip to get it, it is likely (but not certain) not. As I said, it may accept the signal, but internal crudely convert to 50Hz. I have a Sony Bravia that does that.

To use your digital coax you simple turn on the Reclock AC3 Encoder; That is what its for. It encodes AFTER it has done all of its trickery.

I meant change the display refresh rate on the PC, using pstrip or any other utility of your choosing. As James says, if you are not sending s/pdif to Reclock it may be best to use standard Windows timings rather than pstrip advanced timings (your pj has a standard timing for 50Hz, right?).

[sanderh]

As a general rule, if you use a digital display... don't use SPDIF, don't use PowerStrip, use standard timings. Like the timings provided by the graphics card, e.g. 24/25/50/60fps.

Sorry for taking your time but I m really trying to understand here but it is still NOT clear to me, again sorry......
You say that with digital display devices you do not recommend to use SPDIF. But there are a lot of digital projectors (like mine!) that can handle 48Hz. See the following list:

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home-theater-gear/25688-displays-support-1080p-24-signal-multiplies-original-frame-rate.html

And why not use Powerstrip to get very accurate timings?

[sanderh]

If you are not getting stutter great. if you are try 50hz. I genuinely have no idea if your pj supports 47.952. If you have to use pstrip to get it, it is likely (but not certain) not. As I said, it may accept the signal, but internal crudely convert to 50Hz. I have a Sony Bravia that does that.

I ll look into the AVSforum today to make SURE my projector can handle 47,952Hz. (IF my projector supports 23,976Hz, isn t it best to use this one instead of 47,952?)

To use your digital coax you simple turn on the Reclock AC3 Encoder; That is what its for. It encodes AFTER it has done all of its trickery.

So the reclock AC3encoder is used when you want to use SPDIF right?

[Jong]

I ll look into the AVSforum today to make SURE my projector can handle 47,952Hz. (IF my projector supports 23,976Hz, isn t it best to use this one instead of 47,952?)



So the reclock AC3encoder is used when you want to use SPDIF right?Yes, it is better to use 23.976Hz if your projector supports it.

Yes, Reclock's AC3 Encoder allows you to use the fully power of Reclock and still use s/pdif.

[sanderh]

Interesting article about 24p by the way:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

[Jong]

Interesting article about 24p by the way:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htmYes, it is an issue, but remember we in PAL-land have been watching films @25p for years. This faster frame rate reduces motion judder a little, but it is still there. If you find you really hate 24p you may prefer using Reclock to speedup to 25p, as we just discussed. Or because you are used to 25p you may not even notice 24p motion judder.

Edit: And I just read up on your projector. I would definitely feed your projector 24p instead of 47.952Hz.

[Jong]

As a general rule, if you use a digital display... don't use SPDIF, don't use PowerStrip, use standard timings. Like the timings provided by the graphics card, e.g. 24/25/50/60fps.You say this but some players really don't like having their refresh rate changed mid-stream. After your prompting, and because I am currently using Reclock AC3Encoder and just 50Hz and 60Hz, I tried using "setdisplayfrequency.exe". MPC-HC would almost always crash/lock-up on the refresh rate change. Powerstrip works fine, however; I guess because it is unaware of the change. I did not try PDVD but doesn't that also need playback to be stopped before switching rates using Windows?

[James]

Again... nobody who is remotely sane wants to play PAL DVDs at 25 fps.

Even if I tend to repeat myself... trust your ears:

http://www.schmidt-web.info/malte/english.html

My guess is that 90% of the PAL DVDs are affected by this problem.

Whoever doesn't notice the difference... well, he can use SPDIF, or even better, don't use ReClock at all. He/she doesn't deserve to have a HTPC. :D

[Jong]

James, it is just not as simple as that. If your PAL TV does not accept 24Hz or 48Hz without stuttering like h*ll then this is your best option.

At least with Blu-ray we can apply pitch correction when we speedup.

If you want to help most in PAL-land you could offer a PAL pitch correction when playing PAL media @50Hz which can be turned off in the properties pane when we have one of the few discs with pitch correction already applied.

It is not ideal but it is something we are used to and, frankly, better than stuttering video.

[leeperry]

Interesting article about 24p by the way:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm
goedvordomme, so much b/s on a single webpage...I'm impressed :D

truth is *NO* standalone player will ever reach the smoothness of Reclock.

both Kazuya & I have tried several standalone players(BD30/EP35/XE1/PS3/etc...) in 1080p24(on compatible projectors), the slow panning scenes were TERRIBLE to look at.

a bit less worse than 60Hz, but FAR from Reclock with a matching frame rate.

also, some movies simply have crappy HD transfers(The Fall BD which judders terribly), but some BD's have very good motion blur algorithms(the Clone Wars BD looks like 48fps to me).

I remember that website also said that 24Hz was m00t compared to 60Hz, and that only snobbish ppl prefered that :o

once your brain has gotten use to 48Hz/24p with Reclock, it looks just as smooth as a videogame in 60Hz(at least with Haali's Renderer in MPC/KMP ;))

[Lucifer1977]

I can not play BluRays without Reclock. I use ATI 4670 with HDMI perfectly. However, does Reclock effect my options or audio quality in any way?

[James]

I can not play BluRays without Reclock. I use ATI 4670 with HDMI perfectly. However, does Reclock effect my options or audio quality in any way?

I recommend to use your ears to check. ;)

[James]

James, it is just not as simple as that. If your PAL TV does not accept 24Hz or 48Hz without stuttering like h*ll then this is your best option.

The display device of the OP does.

EDIT:
And for displays which only support 25/50Hz, there is the second "PAL Speedup reversal" button "for the poor". Which won't work with SPDIF, of course.

[Jong]

for displays which only support 25/50Hz, there is the second "PAL Speedup reversal" button "for the poor". Thank you I had missed this. But it seems not to work properly (or I have misunderstood); I've posted in the support thread.