AnyDVD HD for Linux ? [Archive]

DrinkLyeAndDie

18th February 2008, 23:54

I have been looking at the forum and have seen that users have demanded many times a copy of any DVD for linux. Perhaps the time has come to Slysoft develop a version for Linux. Why not do a survey and ask users if they want a copy of anydvd for linux? You may be surprised by the results ...

Linux has been growing in recent years and more and more people are using it. Other companies are developing their products for Linux. I want Slysoft do the same, it would be great.

The topic has been discussed to death many times concerning Linux & Mac versions. Refer to the following links:

http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=164
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=4447
http://forum.slysoft.com/showthread.php?t=5205

These aren't all the discussions.

HeartsOfWar

19th February 2008, 10:25

I'm a very big supporter of linux, and anything that Slysoft could do to "help" linux continue to gain ground is a + in my book; however, dual development would likely impact the quality of releases on the main platform... which isn't something I'm willing to sacrifice, and I would imagine most would feel the same.

robegue

23rd June 2008, 04:17

Quite unlikely. The attitude of the maintainers of the Linux kernel scares us away.

Have you ever heard about fuse (file system user space)? It's a module part of the base kernel, very stable, supported and widely used, for example:

1) ntfs-3g uses fuse to mount ntfs filesystems in read/write mode
2) sshfs mounts remote filesystems in local through ssh and fuse. It's VERY powerful.
3) Wiifuse allows reading encrypted Wii disks; it's based on fuse
4) many others

I think this could fit perfectly as backbone for a AnyDVD-HD linux version.

What do you think?

robegue

23rd June 2008, 04:49

Moreover there's no licence issue
from http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/FAQ :

1)Under what license is FUSE released?

The kernel part is released under the GNU GPL.
Libfuse is released under the GNU LGPL.
All other parts (examples, fusermount, etc) are released under the GNU GPL.

2)Under what conditions may I modify or distribute FUSE?

See the files COPYING and COPYING.LIB in the distribution.
More information can be found at http://www.gnu.org/licenses/

3)Under what conditions may I distribute a filesystem which uses libfuse?

In simple terms as long as you are linking dynamically (the default) there are no limitations on linking with libfuse. For example you may distribute the filesystem itself in binary form, without source code, under any propriatery license.

4)Under what conditions may I distribute a filesystem that uses the raw kernel interface of FUSE?

There are no restrictions whatsoever for using the raw kernel interface.

robegue

25th June 2008, 05:03

Any comment from developers?

sej7278

25th June 2008, 15:32

Any comment from developers?

i expect slysoft just don't have any linux/mac programmers, as the licensing/demand excuses have been destroyed.

digitalfreak

25th June 2008, 15:47

/close :bang:

DrinkLyeAndDie

25th June 2008, 15:50

/close :bang:

I'm not going to close the thread... yet. Let the Moderators moderate.

I believe another Moderator merged robegue's posts into this existing thread which was a bit old. The person didn't just tack on posts to the existing thread.

It might be wise for the robegue to read all the threads concerning Linux, however.

Peer

25th June 2008, 16:52

i expect slysoft just don't have any linux/mac programmers, as the licensing/demand excuses have been destroyed.

Now, just between you and me... we don't have any programmers at all.
It all started out with an excel spreadsheet designed to calculate baseball results.
It was an odd mishap, the file extension accidentally got renamed to .exe and for some mysterious reason it turned out that this thing suddenly decrypted DVDs like hell!
Sure we tried the same with MAC and Linux, but I guess that would have been just too lucky. Sorry. Really. :)

Webslinger

25th June 2008, 16:56

It all started out with an excel spreadsheet designed to calculate baseball results.

You guys entered the wrong stats. My batting average should be higher! :mad:

James

25th June 2008, 18:17

Any comment from developers?

AnyDVD doesn't operate on the filesystem level, so I don't see how FUSE will help.

James

25th June 2008, 18:18

i as the licensing/demand excuses have been destroyed.

Wrong.
....

gwolfman

25th June 2008, 19:46

That is a good ideal but then do most users really read them? I do agree though. :D

haha so true

lostinlodos

25th June 2008, 19:46

Quite unlikely. The attitude of the maintainers of the Linux kernel scares us away.

Now now! Don't be picking on us Linux users. Honestly just like Windows, there are a few free-everything people. But their the minority. Most are quite happy and willing to co-exist side by side with commercial software. I believe most of the 7 distros I use are mixed about 33% free/share/commercial software. The fact that there are people asking for it tells you that there is interest and willingness to PAY for your COMMERCIAL program on Linux. I would; and so will everyone else who keeps asking when you porting to Linux.
Are you really going to make us wait untill Windows is no longer the dominant OS (2015-2020 est as early end) to get your software on Linux?

If you really do only need a programmer I'd be willing to work with you to get your project going.

James

25th June 2008, 20:29

Now now! Don't be picking on us Linux users. Honestly just like Windows, there are a few free-everything people. But their the minority. Most are quite happy and willing to co-exist side by side with commercial software. I believe most of the 7 distros I use are mixed about 33% free/share/commercial software. The fact that there are people asking for it tells you that there is interest and willingness to PAY for your COMMERCIAL program on Linux. I would; and so will everyone else who keeps asking when you porting to Linux.
Are you really going to make us wait untill Windows is no longer the dominant OS (2015-2020 est as early end) to get your software on Linux?

You miss the point. If we write a Linux Kernel driver, it must (should, e.g., Nvidia ignores this) be published under GPL, which we are not willing to do.
Other free OSes (FreeBSD, NetBSD) don't have this restriction.
FUSE was a good suggestion, but I am not sure if it'll help.

Turtleggjp

26th June 2008, 00:04

You miss the point. If we write a Linux Kernel driver, it must (should, e.g., Nvidia ignores this) be published under GPL, which we are not willing to do.

I think this says it very well right there. This isn't like DVD Decrypting where code to bring the whole system down was widely known. These guys put a lot of effort into cracking this stuff, and I understand if they don't want to just release it out into the open under GPL. If they did, AACS LA (and whoever is changing BD+) would probably have a much easier time shutting them down. It's not like they are unable to stop them now, it just means they have to work harder at it. Slysoft has to work hard to break through AACS, AACS LA should have to work hard to stop Slysoft.

James

26th June 2008, 07:19

Just a little statement to ease your mind:

AnyDVD (which isn't an application, but in fact part of the OS) can't be ported to Linux at this time as it is closed source.

However, AnyDVD (as part of the OS) isn't really necessary on Linux at the moment. There isn't even playback software available.

What would be nice on Linux is a ripper, which copies discs to files / iso images. Very handy if you want to use Linux as your media server. Burning discs in the same application would be nice, too.
I don't like to give forward looking statements, so let me put it this way:
Nothing is stopping us from writing such an application. ;)

James

26th June 2008, 11:57

NEVER!!!...
Never say never... ;)

Webslinger

26th June 2008, 11:59

I will delete any Windows vs Linux posts in this thread. I could do without the flame bait please. If people want to have a windows vs linux debate, do it in the third party forum (and keep it civil). :policeman:

odd_function

26th June 2008, 12:18

I will delete any Windows vs Linux posts in this thread.

Sorry about that...I had no idea that was not allowed here :confused:

If people want to have a windows vs linux debate, do it in the third party forum (and keep it civil). :policeman:

That's strange, :confused: Linux distros is not even a 3rd party product...it's an operating system :confused: Unlike M$ operating systems, its free.

Webslinger

26th June 2008, 12:21

Sorry about that...I had no idea that was not allowed here

This thread has nothing to do with Windows--nor arguing about what OS is better.

This thread is a "bug Slysoft to support Linux" thread.

That's strange, :confused: Linux distros is not even a 3rd party product...

Based on what? A product is "something produced by labour": http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/product

it's an operating system

So?

:confused: Unlike M$ operating systems, its free.

A product does not need to be commercial in order to be considered a product.

It's a third party product in the the sense that it's a program that has absolutely nothing to do with Slysoft programs. Discussion concerning non-Slysoft programs belongs in the Third Party Products forum. :policeman:

DrinkLyeAndDie

26th June 2008, 12:27

Sorry about that...I had no idea that was not allowed here :confused:

Refresh yourself with the forum rules here: http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=6&postcount=1

General Rules:

While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters.

Your post was inflammatory and continued posts by people like that will result in this thread being closed. Discussion is fine. Leave the pointless inflammatory stuff out of it.

odd_function

26th June 2008, 12:35

Never say never... ;)
I apologize if this sounds rude but...
I challenge you to prove me wrong ;)

If people want to have a windows vs linux debate, do it in the third party forum (and keep it civil). :policeman:

The only problem I find is, that, the thread is not located in the 3rd party products so, if I would have posted it there, It would made no sense.

Webslinger

26th June 2008, 12:37

The only problem I find is, that, the thread is not located in the 3rd party products so, if I would have posted it there, It would made no sense.

All you had to do was link to the thread and write that you think Linux is inferior to Windows. It doesn't even matter if you link to this thread. Your post was little more than Linux bashing.

Anyway, this isn't open to debate.

Next time, you know better. :policeman:

odd_function

26th June 2008, 12:51

Next time, you know better. :policeman:
fair enough :agree:

odd_function

26th June 2008, 12:58

Anyway, this isn't open to debate.

Sorry...one last statement.

Your post was little more than Linux bashing.

Well, actually, I was not necessarily bashing Linux...I was compairing Apples to Apples. But, I will not mention it again unless it's in 3rd party products ;)

lostinlodos

26th June 2008, 17:25

You miss the point. If we write a Linux Kernel driver, it must (should, e.g., Nvidia ignores this) be published under GPL, which we are not willing to do.
Other free OSes (FreeBSD, NetBSD) don't have this restriction.
FUSE was a good suggestion, but I am not sure if it'll help.
That's (part of) the point I was reading into. And that's not correct. Nero is not under the GPL, nor are three of four commercial products based on Wine. Even as much, some whole Linux distributions are 100% (out-of-the-box) commercial; from the GUI to the software installed on first boot, to the codecs. And they're not GPL.
Just a little statement to ease your mind:
However, AnyDVD (as part of the OS) isn't really necessary on Linux at the moment. There isn't even playback software available.

Totem, VLC, LinVew, and mPlayer can all play back HD/BD media if ripped in windows, saved, and loaded under Linux. I use each at different times on Ubuntu, Red Hat, Debian, 1 OS Too among others. Properly configured, they play HD content just fine.

nor arguing about what OS is better.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/product

That's the common misconception windows only users or mac-only users have about Linux. Linux, in the most bare and raw breakdown, is NOT an OS. It's a gui/shell based on Apple's Lisa OS, which was based on Xerox GOSC, which which was a GUI for a modified Unix core based on original Unix code, which was based on BIO-DOS, the same core code used in the original .9-3.11/3.12 Windows OS.
Like consumer Windows pre-xp era was a gui for dos, OS/2 was a gui for PCDos, and 1 OS Two is a shell with Linux support for PCDos, Linux is a GUI for a modified Unix code. Again, in the rawest form.
Understandably difficult, AnyDVD would, for those who push in these threads the hardest, need to be rebuilt from scratch.

For those who can't wait, I'll offer this tidbit of information: If it can work in 16/32 bit mode or ghosted 16 on 32, it can be made to work on Linux. I run AnyDVD-hd (some what) under Linux to varying degrees of usefulness. It does work with mounted images as a pass-through for software based cd players, but fails with hardware. All other SlySoft works for me on Linux.

It's a third party product in the the sense that it's a program that has absolutely nothing to do with Slysoft programs. Discussion concerning non-Slysoft programs belongs in the Third Party Products forum. :policeman:
Um, wasn't the question about AnyDVD/AnyDVD-HD being programed for and/or running under Linux!? Last time I checked AnyDVD was a SlySoft product. ;)

Webslinger

26th June 2008, 19:23

That's the common misconception windows only users or mac-only users have about Linux. Linux, in the most bare and raw breakdown, is NOT an OS. It's a gui/shell based on Apple's Lisa OS, which was based on Xerox GOSC, which which was a GUI for a modified Unix core based on original Unix code, which was based on BIO-DOS, the same core code used in the original .9-3.11/3.12 Windows OS.
Like consumer Windows pre-xp era was a gui for dos, OS/2 was a gui for PCDos, and 1 OS Two is a shell with Linux support for PCDos, Linux is a GUI for a modified Unix code. Again, in the rawest form.

That's all terribly interesting, especially considering I already know that. If you want to discuss Linux, in of itself, take it to the Third Party Products forum. :policeman:

Um, wasn't the question about AnyDVD/AnyDVD-HD being programed for and/or running under Linux!? Last time I checked AnyDVD was a SlySoft product. ;)

Um, last time I checked, I wasn't addressing you. I was addressing odd_function, who decided to post a windows vs linux debate that really had nothing to do with Anydvd (not unlike the second half of your post). I deleted the odd function's post. I am considering deleting more posts.

And if anyone wishes to continue debating moderation decisions with me, I will start considering bans. :policeman:

robegue

27th June 2008, 05:34

AnyDVD doesn't operate on the filesystem level, so I don't see how FUSE will help.

Thanks for the answer,
It's not clear to me what AnyDVD exactly does, but I supppose if the OS can see the files on a DVD/BlueRay, the only thing we have to do is to decrypt these files in order to play them.

Now, a similar procedure is done on encrypted Wii dvds by Wiifuse: mounting a dvd with Wiifuse, the user can see the files decrypted on-fly.

I'm not saying that AnyDVD works this way on windows, but that this is a way to make an AnyDVD version for linux.

robegue

27th June 2008, 05:42

...
However, AnyDVD (as part of the OS) isn't really necessary on Linux at the moment. There isn't even playback software available.
...

that's not true: mplayer does play (decrypted) HDDVD and BlueRay

Adbear

27th June 2008, 05:59

that's not true: mplayer does play (decrypted) HDDVD and BlueRay

But does it play them as full discs or just by playing the m2ts file, also does it play back full HD audio or do you have to also convert the audio to a supported format?

robegue

27th June 2008, 06:42

Some info about playing BluRay/HDDVD on linux is described here:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/BluRayAndHDDVD

Adbear

27th June 2008, 07:20

So it doesn't play the film back as a disc, but rather as a file, and not all audio formats are supported, so the statement earlier that you can't play back Blu-ray and HD DVD on Linux still stands, there appears to be no player that will let you play a full disc, rather you have to play back the main movie file, and hope that it can play back the main audio track

robegue

27th June 2008, 07:53

rather you have to play back the main movie file, and hope that it can play back the main audio track

well, that is exactly what I would like to do.

Adbear

27th June 2008, 08:01

Well when I play back Blu-ray I like to be able to access the HD audio tracks. Some films only have 1 English audio track, which you would need to convert down to AC3 to be able to hear in Linux. And like I said it's not playing back a Blu-ray, rather just a video file, and for those of us who like to the ease of being able to just put in a disc (or mount an ISO) and then have access to all the parts we want from a menu driven structure (which makes it easier to find what you want in the extras) then Linux is not really an option. Also it didn't make it clear on the page you linked to about subtitles, does it give you access to the subtitles in mplayer?

robegue

27th June 2008, 10:27

What I'm trying to say is that the main thing *nix users would like to have, is to watch hd movies. Doesn't matter to me if is file or disk! There's some problems with audio? Ok, but that's not an issue related to AnyDVD-HD. Other people are working on that now. AnyDVD-HD removes the protections of BD and HDDVD on-the-fly, and that's what is needed from Slysoft.

p.s: mplayer is considered one of the most complete player around. It can perfectly handle subtitles.

Adbear

27th June 2008, 11:04

But does it handle the subtitles from inside the m2ts or evo file? or do you have to have a separate subtitle file?

robegue

27th June 2008, 11:41

But does it handle the subtitles from inside the m2ts or evo file? or do you have to have a separate subtitle file?
I think subtitles in m2ts and evo files is a feature in CVS. But again, here we are talkin' about on-fly decryption and NOT about players/codecs!

Adbear

27th June 2008, 14:10

PrincipalityFusion

27th June 2008, 19:54

For all the trouble Slysoft would have to go through to properly recreate AnyDVDHD for Linux (notwithstanding the licensing issues which i must confess i don't understand)....

wouldln't it just be easier to find a copy of XP/Vista and dual boot. It's not like you have to even have the most expensive copy of windows to install AnyDVD. Score a copy of XP Home and load it onto that.

I just don't think it's worth the trouble for them yet. They need all thier resources geard up for that Slysoft BluRay player:D

ridhst

27th June 2008, 20:28

:DMaybe if you have Linux you should try Wine the software that runs Windows programs in Linux. Here is a link to the site. http://www.winehq.org/

robegue

28th June 2008, 03:42

for all the trouble Slysoft would have to go through to properly recreate AnyDVDHD for Linux

It's not supposed that Slysoft works for free. The idea is to expand its market SELLING AnyDVD-HD copies also for linux!

wouldln't it just be easier to find a copy of XP/Vista and dual boot.

You don't find copies of windows on the trees. You have to pay for it if you are honest. And, honestly, I switched to linux many years ago and I'm very satisfied of it. If I won't find a way to play bluray disks on linux, I will go for a ps3.

robegue

28th June 2008, 04:01

But the point is why try and do on the fly when you can't play a lot of the films properly, either because they need to have the audio converted or in some cases they need the movie files stitched together to be able to play the full movie

It is true that is also needed an HD-compatible player for linux. I expect that soon the mplayer troubles with audio will be solved. For now, it is probalbly already possible to use one of the windows player with wine. I will check that.

PrincipalityFusion

28th June 2008, 12:10

It's not supposed that Slysoft works for free. The idea is to expand its market SELLING AnyDVD-HD copies also for linux!
From a market perspective, i don't think it would be a good move. Somewhere on this forum, it was said that they would have to redesign the kernel and i'm sure other stuff. Well now they have two different versions of the same program to maintain. I mean, look at some of the issues they get now with the windows version "My disk won't play when i put it in, what's wrong??:confused:" and other such mind numbing questions. Now i'll admit that the average Linux user is a bit more technically refined than the average Windows user, but from a business standpoint, growing your market by creating more kinds of software rather than versions of the same software makes more sense. It may not always be that way, but for right now it is (imho).

You don't find copies of windows on the trees. You have to pay for it if you are honest. And, honestly, I switched to linux many years ago and I'm very satisfied of it. If I won't find a way to play bluray disks on linux, I will go for a ps3.
True, Windows doesn't grow on trees, but you can buy a copy for less than what you'll pay for AnyDVDHD so to me that alone makes sense. And buying a PS3 just because you cant find Linux compatible software is akin to cutting of your nose to spite your face. I mean, for the money you'll spend on a PS3, you could by Windows, AnyDVDHD, PowerDVDUltra and have money left to spare so i don't mean to insult you, but that just doesn't make sense.

I understand that you are a fan of Linux, but buying a copy of Windows doesn't detract from that. Look at it as additional software that's necessary to play your high definition videos. Now if your attitude is similiar to those Linux "everyingthing Windows is the devil and i will not tarnish my hardware by installing that poor excuse for an OS" fanatics then there isn't much that can be done.

....but Slysoft doesn't have to cater to such an irrational desire (code for Linux because Windows sucks desire) just because people want them to.

friend

28th June 2008, 12:18

I watched blu-ray in linux before I knew about slysoft.
Remember muslix64 and backupbluray, etc. ?
I love my dual boot ultimate edition ubuntu and vista. I just checked and
my m2ts files play fine, I dont like to waste space and do a movie only backup anyway.
mplayer complained about alsa but I clicked ok and it played fine - sound over spdif. I dont have 8 speakers anyway.
anydvd installs on wine (release 1) but i cant get it to work (elby i/o)- same with powerdvd.
so i use mplayer - looks good sounds good. Bottom line - I can watch and hear my movies on either OS and I dont have a preference either way.
Slysoft rocks and has the best support and frequent updates way to go
Peer, James and the rest of slysoft team only way it could be better is if
we could use anydvdhd cross platform I would pay for this.
Mr. Bettini - please make ready the dungeon and cut the rum-punch breaks
just like blu-ray support and bd+ there is money to be made and gaps to be
filled.;)

Kelledin

28th June 2008, 23:41

From a market perspective, i don't think it would be a good move. Somewhere on this forum, it was said that they would have to redesign the kernel and i'm sure other stuff.

I'm personally a little puzzled as to why they even need to go into kernel-land to do this (has this even been answered up until now?) I could possibly see why they had to in Windows, but Linux? The kernel exposes the raw disc to userland, as much as any software can (yes, I know certain keys are still hidden from the software). I don't see why it couldn't be done in userland.

I understand that you are a fan of Linux, but buying a copy of Windows doesn't detract from that. Look at it as additional software that's necessary to play your high definition videos. Now if your attitude is similiar to those Linux "everyingthing Windows is the devil and i will not tarnish my hardware by installing that poor excuse for an OS" fanatics then there isn't much that can be done.

My position is that buying a copy of Windows is not a problem, but running it and maintaining it is. I would have to either dedicate a box to it or do virtualization, and I'm not keen on either, despite actually having a virtual image around with a legit paid-for WinXP copy. It sits and gathers dust, because every time I fire up a hypervisor app, it eats resources like crazy to feed the virtual machine, and hypervisors themselves (especially VMware) tend to be a bit painful for various reasons.

On top of that, for my main box or any other, I would have to buy and manage something in the range of Windows Server '08 or CCS to do the sort of things I do with Linux, not just the cheap-ass (and annoying) Vista Home Basic.

As far as I'm concerned, if SlySoft made a command-line, userland Linux app that had Blu-Ray/BD+ cracking capabilities on parity with AnyDVD HD, I would pay for it in a heartbeat. The cross-distro maintenance effort would be almost nothing, and the closed-source licensing would be a non-issue. I would even be willing to sign an NDA and help them port it (yes, I am technically capable), given some way around the DMCA. :bang:

robegue

29th June 2008, 03:42

PrincipalityFusion: I'm not a linux fanatic, just enthusiast because I spend much less time to mantain my system respect to windowz (no viruses, trojans, spyware, etc.).
I hypotesized a ps3 because it provides a very high quality bluray player and good games, also missing in linux.

For the rest, I think that Kelledin answered to my place wery well.

Fernando

29th June 2008, 07:59

I'm personally a little puzzled as to why they even need to go into kernel-land to do this (has this even been answered up until now?) I could possibly see why they had to in Windows, but Linux? The kernel exposes the raw disc to userland, as much as any software can (yes, I know certain keys are still hidden from the software). I don't see why it couldn't be done in userland.

My position is that buying a copy of Windows is not a problem, but running it and maintaining it is. I would have to either dedicate a box to it or do virtualization, and I'm not keen on either, despite actually having a virtual image around with a legit paid-for WinXP copy. It sits and gathers dust, because every time I fire up a hypervisor app, it eats resources like crazy to feed the virtual machine, and hypervisors themselves (especially VMware) tend to be a bit painful for various reasons.

On top of that, for my main box or any other, I would have to buy and manage something in the range of Windows Server '08 or CCS to do the sort of things I do with Linux, not just the cheap-ass (and annoying) Vista Home Basic.

As far as I'm concerned, if SlySoft made a command-line, userland Linux app that had Blu-Ray/BD+ cracking capabilities on parity with AnyDVD HD, I would pay for it in a heartbeat. The cross-distro maintenance effort would be almost nothing, and the closed-source licensing would be a non-issue. I would even be willing to sign an NDA and help them port it (yes, I am technically capable), given some way around the DMCA. :bang:

Well, let me explain it in this way...

AnyDVD protects itself from users that only try to get those secret keys. And for that it uses some kernel functionality. If we create a linux version then those keys are no longer save. They get extracted, a new opensource project is created or that already available libaacs gets updated and the rest (meaning AnyDVD) is thrown away.

You say users will buy AnyDVD for linux - well I'm sure of it. At least the first week. After that they use the free version libaacs and those you even bought AnyDVD for linux might even try to get a refund. And then real trouble starts. Thousands of applications will spread in the world being able to decrypt BD/HD-DVD - all from that open source project. I don't want to name FabDVD but I'm sure you get the point.

Reverse engineering is very hard, otherwise be wouldn't be the only one being able to decrypt MKBv4, MKBv7, BD+ et al. And we want to keep it that way. I personally don't have a problem if someone else reverse engineers it. But I do have a problem with people that steal that information to make money of it without putting any effort in.

Well now you might say you wouldn't do that. And you are right. You might even say you don't know anybody that might do that. And you might be right there too. But it only takes one.

If you're using linux you already have the problem to not being able to play it. mplayer (more precise FFmpeg) cannot handle DTS HD, EACS (still not completely in SVN), MLP(TrueHD), and neither still or interactive graphics. It cannot decode menus - all it can currently do is playback Video and (downscaled) Audio. And also not very fast.

So people using linux already have to put a lot of effort in playing BDs. Using Windows (VMware Windows) to decrypt the disc is just another tiny layer of effort.

So I think from this point on lets drop any kernel/user mode, FUSE or any other related "ideas" and continue with suggestions that protect our secret information in linux. Before having that I personally think linux is currently not on the table.

-----

Any by the way, just to make it clear: We are able to create a linux command line tool in a heartbeat. So it's not a problem of being unfamiliar with linux/gcc/et al.

robegue

29th June 2008, 10:10

If we create a linux version then those keys are no longer save.

Why???

Nobody here is asking for source-code! A lot of linux software is closed: Matlab, NeroLinux, AcrobatReader, Flash plugin...
And reverse engineering is not simpler in linux than win!

I'm sincerely missing the point. Obviously you don't have to justify your choices, but if you say there are good reason to be scared of linux, I really wish to understand:

you say you can not make a kernel module because it's gpl. But that's not true because you know that, for example, NVIDIA drivers are closed and not included in the kernel, but everybody can install them!

Moreover it seems to me that would not be strictly necessary to go into kernelspace, but a FUSE solution would be feasible. Dou you think that userspace is more vulnerable to reverse engineering? It sound strange...

Fernando

29th June 2008, 11:02

I'm not talking about source code, didn't even mention that!

And yes of course it's easier to reverse engineer an application if it's just compiled and not encrypted, obfuscated or code/instruction transvectorized. We have the tools for that for Windows, we know its kernel and its functions. In Linux there's nothing that reliable because there are millions of different linux kernels. (Take each kernel version update and multiply it by compiling option, processor type/option).

And again of course user space is more vulnerable than kernel space. Because there's no way to access kernel space from user space. That's the whole idea. And if this sounds strange to you what do you think is the whole idea behind kernel/user mode? And also there's no way to debug in kernel mode. At least not that colorful and easy-riding as in user mode.

And last but not least: Reverse Engineering is way simpler in Linux than Windows. You just modify/compile your linux source. It's not even a challenge.

robegue

29th June 2008, 11:53

Probably you're right, i'm not as expert like as you. Only, I see many closed source kernel modules (vmware, nvidia drivers, etc..), and they just work for any 2.6.x kernel version, on all the common architectures. Do you think these are so easily crackable?

I suppose all the "encryption, obfuscation or code/instruction transvectorization" can be done also on linux. That's technique, not OS dependent. It's probaly a very hard and time-consuming task, I understand this. Probably like it was for the first release on win. Maybe harder, don't know. But when you say: "We are able to create a linux command line tool in a heartbeat", this makes me very sad.

James

29th June 2008, 12:13

Probably you're right, i'm not as expert like as you. Only, I see many closed source kernel modules (vmware, nvidia drivers, etc..), ...

And here we are at the start of the discussion: The maintainers of the Linux Kernel condemn closed source drivers. They don't want them, and they argue that closed source kernel modules are a GPL violation.

So, they won't get them. ;)

James

29th June 2008, 12:14

BTW, can mplayer play Video DVDs with navigation and menus? Last time I checked, it couldn't.

Fernando

29th June 2008, 12:28

Nope, still can't. Only VideoLAN can (but it's still buggy)

robegue

29th June 2008, 12:38

And here we are at the start of the discussion: The maintainers of the Linux Kernel condemn closed source drivers. They don't want them, and they argue that closed source kernel modules are a GPL violation.

So, they won't get them. ;)

They don't want closed source drivers? WHO CARES! The kernel is GPL, but external NON-GPL modules are evidently allowed!

BTW, can mplayer play Video DVDs with navigation and menus? Last time I checked, it couldn't.

of course it can, like as vlc, and kaffeine (xine-lib). Every use libdvdnav to do that. But in some distros mplayer is not compiled with dvdnav support (just compile yourself). The first official merge of dvdnav was in 2002 with xine, that is currently the reference player. (see http://dvd.sourceforge.net )

friend

29th June 2008, 13:48

I thought ogle was the first player with dvd menu support.
Anyway there is a chart of what is supported on which player on this page -
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6921

robegue

29th June 2008, 13:56

I thought ogle was the first player with dvd menu support.
Anyway there is a chart of what is supported on which player on this page -
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6921

Thank you, friend, maybe was Ogle the first, I don't know; what matters is the 2002 date (or even earlier).

p.s.: that linuxjournal article on players comparison is very dated: Dec. 2003...

lostinlodos

29th June 2008, 14:01

For James' rhetorical question regarding mPlayer and Adbear's comments about playback of files:
mPlayer is the WORST thing you can use to play any kind of pre-designed disc under Linux. I use Totem for playback of decrypted HD and B*. Playback with menus in place and everything. Using a ripped image on the hard drive, a cloned disc image mounted from a ripped image, or a non-decrypted disc dump mounted with AnyDVD-HD running, with all the available codecs in place, the only place I find trouble is with certain AC3 audio tracks. I have the same issue with them under Windows.

That's all terribly interesting, especially considering I already know that...

I wasn't directly commenting to you, just using that post as a jumping board. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way.

The point was for others that keep asking; that AnyDVD-HD DOES run under some emulators or file libraries in order to use pre-ripped or cloned images. It's useless for reading disc drives, but it picks up mounted images just fine and decrypts just fine. It's a way to make things work... for now! I haven't tried using CloneCD on a B* or HD-DVD disc yet, so that may or may not work; I still haven't found a way to make it stable under Linux yet.

>>>To use your AnyDVD-HD software and play HD and B* discs on Linux:<<<

Prerequisite: A windows emulator or not an emulator. Wine works best so far for me. Other like Free Win and the like work too though hit-or-miss. You'll be asked to install dependencies along the way as usual. Some (rare) distros still don't include disc image mounting software, if not head over to your distro's package repository and pick out one you like (they're often "restricted").
I won't point to links directly because it's always best to use your own distro's app-get function.

1) Dump the raw contents of disc to a bin-cue,
2) Load up an emulator or "not an emulator"
3) Install AnyDVD-HD using the emulator's installer, often from the task menu button. I can't make that clear enough! Do not use an emulator's general support function (double click install integration).
4)Mount the image
5) Run AnyDVD-HD
6) Load Totem or any other for-Linux-primary disc player that supports AVCHD and BDR discs, play disc, and download anything you are asked to for compatibility.

Really, it's that straight forward. :D
There are still some compatibility with the less common audio formats used on a few discs, but most of what I have plays fine.

robegue

29th June 2008, 14:27

ok, but for that already exists dumpHD, for free...

Here we are talking about on-the-fly decryption.

But thanks for the Totem news! Now WE DO HAVE a player for HD content!

robegue

29th June 2008, 18:06

lostinlodos: Which engine do you use with Totem: xine or gstreamer?

Kelledin

29th June 2008, 20:48

Well, let me explain it in this way...

AnyDVD protects itself from users that only try to get those secret keys. And for that it uses some kernel functionality. If we create a linux version then those keys are no longer save. They get extracted, a new opensource project is created or that already available libaacs gets updated and the rest (meaning AnyDVD) is thrown away.

Except that AACS keys get revoked all the time, and new ones get generated. AIUI that's part of the benefit of AnyDVD HD: as new keys get generated and assigned by the AACS-LA, AnyDVD HD makes them available to legit users.

If you're really set on it though, it sounds like you're looking for secure, encrypted memory. For that you probably ought to look at how GnuPG does secure memory, then see about building something similar to (but improved upon) the glibc memfrob(). I don't know what Windows has to encrypt memory or how it compares to memfrob(), but I'm fairly certain whatever Microsoft has come up with, it wouldn't be too difficult for a decent cryptographer to come up with something just as good or better.

On top of that, you might check out shiva or elf-encrypter (both are userland):

http://www.securiteam.com/tools/5XP041FA0U.html
http://elf-encrypter.sourceforge.net/

As far as the arguments concerning what current FOSS software can actually do with the decrypted content, that should change quickly enough once decrypted HD content is readily available. The main problem holding back the FOSS world from doing what AnyDVD HD does is the DMCA and similar anti-circumvention laws, which have actually been considerably strengthened worldwide since DeCSS. Obviously that severely compromises our development manpower.

lostinlodos

30th June 2008, 09:51

lostinlodos: Which engine do you use with Totem: xine or gstreamer?

whatever is included in the latest "unstable" Ubuntu distro. I pulled it directly out of the iso, dumped the source and ported it to everything I use. I'm not sure what the core is but I'll check on that tonight. All the codecs and dependencies I pulled from (or mostly from) the restricted repositories that are suggested in the Ubuntu and Debian forums.

liels

30th June 2008, 14:40

So people using linux already have to put a lot of effort in playing BDs. Using Windows (VMware Windows) to decrypt the disc is just another tiny layer of effort.

Sad but true. I think I'm about as big a linux advocate out there short of thinking vendors should do things not in their interest (sorry RMS, _some_ code can be unfree and still be a good thing). (The fact that I've watched most of my HD-DVDs/BDs off a windowless mythbox says something about that. Or stuborness.)

It seems SlySoft has thought about this very seriously and I don't see a good argument to get them to change their mind.

On the other hand ... to answer the clarion call for a SlySoft player, it might make business sense to bring mplayer up to snuff (or a fork thereof depending how difficult the ffmpeg svn keepers are this month) as it would make your core products that much more attractive and (might) not take all that much effort.

One thing though about AnyDVD needing kernel mode obfuscation .... I'm not sure how actively anyone has tried to lift keys out of your program but it seems you must, just like the studios, end up giving your customers a plaintext message. From a cyphertext message. So somewhere along the line you gave out the key. And not having been able to revoke the laws of physics by making copying not copying (buff to buff) and so on ... just lets say I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of all of this kind of thinking.

liels

30th June 2008, 14:44

BTW, can mplayer play Video DVDs with navigation and menus? Last time I checked, it couldn't.

I typically use the mythtv internal player which has good menu and nav support for standard def DVDs (which naturally calls ffmpeg like probably most things out there possibly violating the license)

mplayer by default won't do that; it can be compiled with --enable-libdvdnav but that's far from flawless and problem prone for the rest of mplayer (which is why it's disabled by default).

Ogle and Xine had ok support last I use them.

lostinlodos

30th June 2008, 22:16

I typically use the mythtv internal player which has good menu and nav support for standard def DVDs (which naturally calls ffmpeg like probably most things out there possibly violating the license)

mplayer by default won't do that; it can be compiled with --enable-libdvdnav but that's far from flawless and problem prone for the rest of mplayer (which is why it's disabled by default).

Ogle and Xine had ok support last I use them.

I've installed the .deb based mythtv complete package myth_deb_com which has all the mythtv files install together with -i --f d forced ignores, partly required for the kaffe issue, but I never figured out how to call up the player! :o Any idea where the player itself gets dropped on the system tree? I just can't find the **** thing.

DrinkLyeAndDie

1st July 2008, 04:25

The original purpose of this was about AnyDVD running under Linux. To be honest the question has been asked and answered numerous times with input from different Slysoft developers which is beyond enough. We're beating a dead horse. If people wish to continue the discussion then please keep the discussion really on-topic. Compiler settings to build a DVD player under Linux are not on-topic for the purpose of this thread.

Stay on topic or the thread will be closed. Reading this thread is like watching a gerbil on a wheel going nowhere.

robegue

2nd July 2008, 13:01

Stay on topic or the thread will be closed. Reading this thread is like watching a gerbil on a wheel going nowhere.

Well, actually we went somewhere:

it has been confirmed that decrypted HD media can be normally played on linux, for example with the Totem player. This makes AnyDVD-HD very appetible to linux users.

Next SlySoft team claimed that does not exist the same security level on linux as on windows, so that keys could be easily extracted.

But that's not a problem because "AACS keys get revoked all the time, and new ones get generated. AIUI that's part of the benefit of AnyDVD HD: as new keys get generated and assigned by the AACS-LA, AnyDVD HD makes them available to legit users."
SlySoft should know that.

And for what concern encryption of memory and additional security layers it has been suggested:
If you're really set on it though, it sounds like you're looking for secure, encrypted memory. For that you probably ought to look at how GnuPG does secure memory, then see about building something similar to (but improved upon) the glibc memfrob(). I don't know what Windows has to encrypt memory or how it compares to memfrob(), but I'm fairly certain whatever Microsoft has come up with, it wouldn't be too difficult for a decent cryptographer to come up with something just as good or better.

On top of that, you might check out shiva or elf-encrypter (both are userland):

http://www.securiteam.com/tools/5XP041FA0U.html
http://elf-encrypter.sourceforge.net/

And here the constructive discussion stopped, still waiting for the technical opinion of SlySoft about this last suggestion.

Adbear

2nd July 2008, 14:34

I thought AACS keys only got revoked 4 times a year, so that means that as soon as Slysoft crack it, it goes onto a linux version and if it's easier for someone to extract the main key then all of a sudden lots of other people have access to that key and then Slysoft have to wait 3 months until another key is brought out then go thru the whole thing again

DrinkLyeAndDie

2nd July 2008, 14:55

Well, actually we went somewhere

I don't really agree but alright.

Next SlySoft team claimed that does not exist the same security level on linux as on windows, so that keys could be easily extracted.

But that's not a problem because "AACS keys get revoked all the time, and new ones get generated. AIUI that's part of the benefit of AnyDVD HD: as new keys get generated and assigned by the AACS-LA, AnyDVD HD makes them available to legit users."
SlySoft should know that.

I believe you are misinterpreting things.

And here the constructive discussion stopped, still waiting for the technical opinion of SlySoft about this last suggestion.

Slysoft has replied to such discussion and explained why they haven't released a Linux product. Numerous developers have replied. I'm sure they have looked at things and debated it themselves. You are not the first to ask for this or offer suggestions.

Slysoft will not release a kernel driver that is not GPL'ed and they won't release a GPL'ed driver so that's not going to happen that way. Slysoft takes this seriously and isn't going to be like NVIDIA and release their driver without doing what they should. Maybe they will take another approach but I'm sure they have to weigh their options and see if the solution is feasible and worth the effort without more negatives than positives.

I thought AACS keys only got revoked 4 times a year, so that means that as soon as Slysoft crack it, it goes onto a linux version and if it's easier for someone to extract the main key then all of a sudden lots of other people have access to that key and then Slysoft have to wait 3 months until another key is brought out then go thru the whole thing again

I believe this is a concern, yes. The issue of security and keys isn't about the AACS LA. The concern is about other people using Slysoft's work for themselves.