WASAPI Support

[jmone]

Hi, Any thoughts on the inclusion of WASAPI support?
Thanks
Nathan

[James]

Hi, Any thoughts on the inclusion of WASAPI support?
Thanks
Nathan
To what purpose?

[jmone]

I'm using WASAPI (exclusive mode) for my CD Audio style playback and one of the great features is it changes my default Audio Configuration from 5.1 to 2ch and back again automatically.

One issue I've noticed with my HTPC Audio playback is that my default Audio Card setting is for 5.1 which is makes sence as I have a 5.1 system. The problem I had with DirectSound is that 2ch sources would still be output as 5.1 resulting in 3 "silent channels" causing issues with the AV Receivers sound field mgt. As an example a receiver would normally map dialoge to the Centre Channel and output LF to the sub even for 2ch "TV" style media, but if it is receiving 5.1 with 3 "silent channels" then this no longer works. Using WASAPI has fixed this problem for my CD Audio playback (incl ripped files) so really my only problem is now with 2ch DirectShow filter audio.

Thanks
Nathan

PS - While I'm note sure at 40 my ears can hear the difference, there seems to be plenty of support for the higher quality nature of WASAPI and it seems to be garnering support from the older ASIO fan base.

[CraziFuzzy]

You could instead use ffdshow to do your stereo -> surround upmixing, it does a rather passable job with default settings.

[James]

I'm using WASAPI (exclusive mode) for my CD Audio style playback and one of the great features is it changes my default Audio Configuration from 5.1 to 2ch and back again automatically.

This works under Vista?
Anyway, I'm still not sure what ReClock (being an audio renderer) should do with WASAPI. (Strange, I always have to think about Wasabi if I write this... ;) )

Wasabi aside, what exactly should ReClock do? Change your speaker channel configuration depending on the input channels (which would be a blessing for HDMI)?

[leeperry]

I'm still not sure what ReClock (being an audio renderer) should do with WASAPI.
it's the new KS flavor, native to Vista....it disables the new KMixer and runs in exclusive mode.
I have to admit that Reclock KS worked pretty poorly in Vista for me(random glitches).

[jmone]

This works under Vista?....Change your speaker channel configuration depending on the input channels (which would be a blessing for HDMI)?

Yup works perfectly. One minute I'm using DirectShow with 5.1 LPCM channels being fed into the AV Receiver, the I play a CD (or CD Rip) using WASAPI (exclusive) renderer and the input dynamically changes to 2CH (and back). If reclock could do the same I don't really care if it is WASAPI (had presumed....it was a part of WASAPI).

[James]

Interesting. Probably worth looking into.

[jmone]

I love how responsive you guys are to new ideas.

[ilovehd]

I use wasapi (foobar2000) exclusively for my cds. It switches my receiver from 5.1ch 48Khz to 2.0ch 44.1Khz disabling the vista mixer and any other sounds. Works fine with dts wav files, flac, etc. couldn't live without it. Exclusive mode is the only way to get bit perfect playback on vista.
I begged and begged for certain bd applications to use the exclusive mode but the answer was NO so when James said yes I thought to myself :rock: on

[leeperry]

Exclusive mode is the only way to get bit perfect playback on vista.
ASIO & KS are also bitperfect, and they work perfectly fine on Vista....KS might require some emulation as the audio layer has been through tremendous changes but it would appear to be bitperfect (I think :D )

[jmone]

You sould also be able to get HiRes stuff like 24/96 2.0, 24/96 5.1 and 24/192 2.0 over HDMI using WASAPI (exclusive) mode without playing with any setting in Vista. Here are some various sample files that is useful for testing:
http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html (I've been using the various B.Britten: Simple Symphony for testing www.jrmediacenter.com WASAPI implementation).

I have to say on my rig (a reasonable sound setup) WASAPI sounds terrific & includes outputing the correct # of Audio Channels - a very big +++

Thanks
Nathan

[ilovehd]

I know asio & kernel streaming work too, I've used them in my long gone xp days. What I've should have said is that wasapi is exclusive to vista. I also have most of the hi res stuff I could get my hands on. HTPC sounds fantastic with everything but the lossless codecs. I do not have a sound card that could bitstream them to my receiver and the output provided by the software players is laughable.

[James]

I use wasapi (foobar2000) exclusively for my cds. It switches my receiver from 5.1ch 48Khz to 2.0ch 44.1Khz disabling the vista mixer and any other sounds. Works fine with dts wav files, flac, etc. couldn't live without it. Exclusive mode is the only way to get bit perfect playback on vista.
I begged and begged for certain bd applications to use the exclusive mode but the answer was NO so when James said yes I thought to myself :rock: on

Well, it might take some time. Don't hold your breath... ;)

[leeperry]

Well, it might take some time. Don't hold your breath... ;)
don't you think that ASIO support in Reclock would be more important ?
afaik for WASAPI to work, you also need proper sound drivers ?!
ASIO has a lot of SDK's available from Steinberg :
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=asio+sdk&btnG=Search&lr=

and it would work on any soundcard & any win32 OS(either through the manufacturer drivers or the ASIO4ALL wrapper)

at this point, if KS doesn't work for you you're SOL as far as bitperfect playback is concerned :o

I'm sure a lot of ppl would be happy to have native ASIO support in Reclock :agree:

I think this would be a strong asset to Reclock, and possibly slyplayer. Reclock was meant for power users, and ASIO being bit perfect & universal...it can't get any better..

PS : having more thoughts about it, you might even make a shareware version that supports VST plugins.
at this point many ppl have to route their audio through a jap software called "console", so they can process Bass Management & delays for each channel....this would allow an "all in one" solution :eek:

[noee]

...

I'm sure a lot of ppl would be happy to have native ASIO support in Reclock :agree:

fwiw, count me into that group.

[Kazuya]

don't you think that ASIO support in Reclock would be more important ?
afaik for WASAPI to work, you also need proper sound drivers ?!
ASIO has a lot of SDK's available from Steinberg :

and it would work on any soundcard & any win32 OS(either through the manufacturer drivers or the ASIO4ALL wrapper)

at this point, if KS doesn't work for you you're SOL as far as bitperfect playback is concerned

I'm sure a lot of ppl would be happy to have native ASIO support in Reclock :agree:



Yes, I know some people telling me ASIO support in Reclock would be great!
As their sound card doesn't work with KS but does have ASIO drivers, so they could finally get bit perfect sound.
please implement it if any possible, thank you! :)

(but for me, I'll never thank you enough for the AC3encoder, which is really perfect ! The dynamic of the sound seems bigger with it that with a simple spdif passthrough ! :eek:
We tested it again today on a huge system Diy with Class A amplifier, and my friend quite agree. 8) )

[James]

(but for me, I'll never thank you enough for the AC3encoder, which is really perfect ! The dynamic of the sound seems bigger with it that with a simple spdif passthrough ! :eek:
We tested it again today on a huge system Diy with Class A amplifier, and my friend quite agree. 8) )

As I said numerous times--- ReClock was never designed to work well with SPDIF passthrough. In fact, it actually doesn't work at all. But it isn't my job to educate people, if they don't listen, it's their choice.
Same ignorance to anyone watching PAL DVDs at 25/50 fps. ;)

[Kazuya]

Yes, but we listened Reclock + AC3 encoder and DTS passthrough without reclock ! ;)

[ducky]

ASIO support, sounds interesting:)

I've been using Reclock for a while now thru KS. It's annoying though as sometimes it looses lip synch (but catches up after a few seconds). Once I noticed this, I became kinda paranoid and now I'm always checking it.

I don't seem to have this problem with DS, but then well, it's not the same... I have sometimes a glitch or two.
I own a ESI Juli@ and successfully used ASIO4ALL along with foobar2000. It just works like a charm.

I'm not sure ASIO is THE solution, but I'd be happy to try it anyway. I'm not sure how hard it is to implement...

[leeperry]

I'm not sure how hard it is to implement
well James won't comment, so we'll prolly never know :D

if only ogo had gone ASIO to begin with..

anyhow KS runs in legacy mode in Vista, and doesn't work at all w/ native Vista(& Win7?) drivers(WaveRT) :

http://code.google.com/p/cmediadrivers/wiki/Bitperfect
Kernel streaming - this interface has been implemented to 2000/XP/Vista in response to Steinberg's ASIO. Applications which use this interface instead of DirectX/MME bypass the kmixer. In Vista, the kernel streaming interface has been marked "deprecated", and it doesn't work with WaveRT versions of the driver

BTW, there's a GPL ASIO output plugin for WMP/Media Center :
http://sourceforge.net/projects/asiowmpplg

[mrcorbo]

I have the same basic setup as the OP and would also very much like to see WASAPI exclusive mode output support. Foobar works great for me for audio and JRMC is getting there (still some bugs) but there is no video playback application that can automatically adjust the audio output to match different channel configurations, bit depths and sample rates in the source material like the audio applications that support WASAPI exclusive mode do.

[CraziFuzzy]

WASAPI would definitely be preferred for me over ASIO. Yes, ASIO is pretty common, but it also lacks the output mode changes that were the basis for starting this thread. Also, ASIO is not necessarily bitperfect, just windows doesn't touch it. Many sound cards still will mess with the sound. in fact, I'm pretty sure most of creative cards ALWAYS mess with the sound (unless using SPDIF pass through) as most their cards (at least the Live, and Audigy cards) are all internally fixed to 48kHz.

The changes in speaker configuration, to me, is the needed feature here. This way the receiver can actually determine how best to playback the sound. When it gets 2.0 over a 5.1 stream, it doesn't do any processing most times, as it thinks it's already surround.

[James]

The changes in speaker configuration, to me, is the needed feature here. This way the receiver can actually determine how best to playback the sound. When it gets 2.0 over a 5.1 stream, it doesn't do any processing most times, as it thinks it's already surround.

Agreed. I'm already looking into this.

[leeperry]

ASIO is not necessarily bitperfect, just windows doesn't touch it. Many sound cards still will mess with the sound. in fact, I'm pretty sure most of creative cards ALWAYS mess with the sound
why would you wanna use a Creative soundcard to begin with? :D
all I was saying is that if KS doesn't work for you, you're SOL...and that this WASAPI stuff is Vista only.

but yeah, next time I'll get a soundcard, I'll get one w/ DirectWire drivers so I can internally route WDM/MME to ASIO...problem solved ;)

http://www.dancetech.com/aa_dt_new/hardware/images/esp_1010_panel_directwire.jpg

[CraziFuzzy]

why would you wanna use a Creative soundcard to begin with? :D
all I was saying is that if KS doesn't work for you, you're SOL...and that this WASAPI stuff is Vista only.

but yeah, next time I'll get a soundcard, I'll get one w/ DirectWire drivers so I can internally route WDM/MME to ASIO...problem solved ;)

http://www.dancetech.com/aa_dt_new/hardware/images/esp_1010_panel_directwire.jpg

Sounds like you NEED a creative card. Look here to see what you WANT. (http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/) Just because Creative can't program a driver to save their mommas life, doesn't mean that others can't. This gives you more customizability than most professional DSP's, and can run on cards that you can probably get on ebay for under $10 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Sound-Blaster-Audigy-2_W0QQitemZ110339722188QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Soun d_Cards?hash=item110339722188)

http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/images/shots/kxdsp.gif

[leeperry]

hehe yeah kX drivers(no support for 44.1 I think?), but Creative cards have poorly shielded PCB's, crappy opamps...and simply bad design :D

I'll take M-Audio or ESI/Audiotrak over Creative anyday :o

translate these jap pages w/ babelfish and see how lousy they scored in THD/SNR :eek:

http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0602/16.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0602/17.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/other/0612/21.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/other/0612/22.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/other/0612/23.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0702/17.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0802/24.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0802/25.htm

[rica]

Hi guys.

Funny but i've just seen the right thread. (I put a feature request in sticky by mistake.)

So this is why we would like James to implement WASAPI support:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1118204


Reclock is supporting Kernel Streaming which is appropriate for XP and i expect someday James will give WASAPI support in reclock.
We have to wait until Reclock supports WASAPI streaming to watch video and audio at the same time._ _ _ _

James, best regards.
_ _ _ _ __

[CraziFuzzy]

hehe yeah kX drivers(no support for 44.1 I think?), but Creative cards have poorly shielded PCB's, crappy opamps...and simply bad design :D

I'll take M-Audio or ESI/Audiotrak over Creative anyday :o

translate these jap pages w/ babelfish and see how lousy they scored in THD/SNR :eek:

http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0602/16.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0602/17.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/other/0612/21.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/other/0612/22.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/other/0612/23.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0702/17.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0802/24.htm
http://www.dosv.jp/feature/0802/25.htm

Well, Ideally, your sound should never touch the analog portions of the card anyways, so THD, and SNR are irrelevant. And you are correct, They don't do 44.1kHz, unless direct out to digital, as the DSP is locked to 48kHz.

[leeperry]

Well, Ideally, your sound should never touch the analog portions of the card anyways, so THD, and SNR are irrelevant.
humm? the best way to do active filtering and support any kind of stream is to go analog....and using Reclock in pass-through mode is not quite an option either :o

[James]

WASAPI would definitely be preferred for me over ASIO. Yes, ASIO is pretty common, but it also lacks the output mode changes that were the basis for starting this thread. Also, ASIO is not necessarily bitperfect, just windows doesn't touch it. Many sound cards still will mess with the sound. in fact, I'm pretty sure most of creative cards ALWAYS mess with the sound (unless using SPDIF pass through) as most their cards (at least the Live, and Audigy cards) are all internally fixed to 48kHz.

The changes in speaker configuration, to me, is the needed feature here. This way the receiver can actually determine how best to playback the sound. When it gets 2.0 over a 5.1 stream, it doesn't do any processing most times, as it thinks it's already surround.

Tada! No WASAPI exclusive support yet, but ReClock 1.8.3.5 can set the speaker configuration to match the input format. I love it with my ATI 4850 HDMI output! :D

[noee]

Man! That is totally cool. Thank you!!

[James]

Tada! No WASAPI exclusive support yet, but ReClock 1.8.3.5 can set the speaker configuration to match the input format. I love it with my ATI 4850 HDMI output! :D

Some notes how to benefit from this feature.

All OS:
Playback using ffdshow audio:
- disable output mixer, otherwise ReClock will receive an audio stream with channel mapping from the mixer
- disable prologic decoder, otherwise ReClock will receive a decoded 5.1 audio stream

Vista:
PowerDVD 8
- set speaker environment to HDMI
- set output mode to PCM

[James]

Hi guys.

Funny but i've just seen the right thread. (I put a feature request in sticky by mistake.)

So this is why we would like James to implement WASAPI support:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1118204



James, best regards.
_ _ _ _ __
Don't know if it was you, but mr. ricabullah is wrong. Vista mixer does not down convert audio to 16/48, if you set the output mixing rate to something else, e.g. 96kHz/24bit.
Actually, Vista mixer is pretty good IMHO, much better than the XP version, so WASAPI exclusive mode isn't so critical as kernel streaming support under XP. As ReClock resamples "by design", bit perfectness isn't the goal. Good (and correct, hello PAL buddies!) sound is.
Anyway, WASAPI exclusive support is coming. I'm thinking of dropping the WaveOut support under Vista, as it is really obsolete (both wave & dsound APIs just map to core audio shared mode).

[jmone]

Anyway, WASAPI exclusive support is coming.

In the words of the Pointer Sisters.....I'm So Excited :clap:

[James]

In the words of the Pointer Sisters.....I'm So Excited :clap:
Don't be. You might get disappointed. ;)
I believe the difference will be minor, if you notice it at all. Vista's mixer is pretty good. And ReClock 1835 already solves the HDMI speaker config problem without WASAPI.

[leeperry]

Don't be. You might get disappointed.
true! now that the speaker config stuff is solved.....what we really need is ASIO 2.0 http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/poussahpensif.gif

[jmone]

Don't be. You might get disappointed. ;)
I believe the difference will be minor, if you notice it at all. Vista's mixer is pretty good. And ReClock 1835 already solves the HDMI speaker config problem without WASAPI.

Missed the 1835 post - & my original requement on forrect Ch Mapping the WASAPI provided is now solved (comments posted in the Reclock Thread). :clap:
Thanks
Nathan

For what it is worth even I (a 40yo Male) can hear the difference between WASAPI and DirectSound with Audio tracks on a reasonable (but not extreme) speaker setup (Axiom Audio).

[mrcorbo]

Tada! No WASAPI exclusive support yet, but ReClock 1.8.3.5 can set the speaker configuration to match the input format. I love it with my ATI 4850 HDMI output! :D

Very nice. Thanks.

[James]

true! now that the speaker config stuff is solved.....what we really need is ASIO 2.0 http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/poussahpensif.gif

No, I'll definitely go WASAPI exclusive mode. Nothing against ASIO... :p

[leeperry]

No, I'll definitely go WASAPI exclusive mode. Nothing against ASIO...
well ASIO is universal, it works from win95/98/ME/NT3.51/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7.....WASAPI merely works on Vista, and prolly 7? but well you're the boss :o

at this point, many ppl still prefer XP.....and if KS doesn't work for them they're SOL to get bit-perfect audio :(

plus there's many SDK's around, I guess ASIO 2.0 shouldn't be too hard to implement for a skilled coder such as you? :D

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=asio+sdk&btnG=Search&lr=

also some audio drivers don't support WASAPI on Vista(WareRT anyone?), where they pretty much all support ASIO on whatever windows flavor 8)

ASIO is the industry standard for low latency bit-perfectness(supported by 99% of the manufacturers), KS is just a dirty hack from m$ to fight against ASIO...and so is WASAPI apparently.

[rica]

Don't know if it was you, but mr. ricabullah is wrong. Vista mixer does not down convert audio to 16/48, if you set the output mixing rate to something else, e.g. 96kHz/24bit.


Yes that is me who is supposed to be wrong.


so WASAPI exclusive mode isn't so critical as kernel streaming support under XP.

This is really bad news for me if you think so.

Don't be. You might get disappointed. ;)
I believe the difference will be minor, if you notice it at all. Vista's mixer is pretty good.

This is much worse news.

The difference, believe me, would not be minor and i do believe there are still some guys who think it is not minor.

For the time being the only hope is your decision and suppose for a while it is not minor and please try to give WASAPI support.

I do wanna believe ReClock 1.8.3.7 will give WASAPI support btw.:)

Thanks.

[James]

The difference, believe me, would not be minor and i do believe there are still some guys who think it is not minor.

Everybody will be able to judge it...


For the time being the only hope is your decision and suppose for a while it is not minor and please try to give WASAPI support.

I do wanna believe ReClock 1.8.3.7 will give WASAPI support btw.:)

I don't know which version it will be - it is some work - but a future version will.

[rica]

I don't know which version it will be - it is some work - but a future version will.

Wow, that was the good news :clap:

[James]

well ASIO is universal, it works from win95/98/ME/NT3.51/NT4/2000/XP/Vista/7.....WASAPI merely works on Vista, and prolly 7?

It will / would / should work with everything Vista and up.


at this point, many ppl still prefer XP.....and if KS doesn't work for them they're SOL to get bit-perfect audio :(

plus there's many SDK's around, I guess ASIO 2.0 shouldn't be too hard to implement for a skilled coder such as you? :D

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=asio+sdk&btnG=Search&lr=

also some audio drivers don't support WASAPI on Vista(WareRT anyone?), where they pretty much all support ASIO on whatever windows flavor 8)

ASIO is the industry standard for low latency bit-perfectness(supported by 99% of the manufacturers), KS is just a dirty hack from m$ to fight against ASIO...and so is WASAPI apparently.

I believe that *all* drivers will support WASAPI, as all Windows audio (WaveOut, DSound) is emulated and tunneled through the new core audio stack.
I wasn't aware that some devices don't support WASAPI. I didn't even know that there is a way that they cannot support it. You're starting to scare me....
I know that devices might not support all formats, but in this case you need to resample anyway.
And some pretty cool devices for HTPC use - like the ATI 7.1 HDMI out - don't support ASIO, which IMHO is a showstopper. At least for me. :D

[rica]

Kernel and ASIO were designed for XP.
Nowadays, XP is ex anymore afaik.

[leeperry]

some pretty cool devices for HTPC use - like the ATI 7.1 HDMI out - don't support ASIO, which IMHO is a showstopper. At least for me. :D
well that's the thing...ASIO is the industry standard, and if I remember correctly the HDMI out on these ATi graphic cards is using a Realtek chip ? ASIO4ALL is known to work perfectly fine w/ these chips :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127520&perpage=25&pagenumber=3
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=asio+ati+hdmi+asio4all&btnG=Search&lr=

apparently some 64bit audio drivers can also have problems w/ WASAPI :
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=wavert+wasapi&btnG=Search&lr=
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/forums/en-US/windowspro-audiodevelopment/thread/4356e480-e772-4af9-a8d9-d94b318959b7/

quite frankly, everything WASAPI does has been available w/ ASIO for like +15 years, from the win95 days :o

and it would enable anyone on win2k/xp/vista/7 or older to enjoy bit-perfectness w/ any soundcard(either through the manufacturer's drivers, or through ASIO4ALL)
Kernel and ASIO were designed for XP.
Nowadays, XP is ex anymore afaik.
right, Vista killed ASIO....musicians all over the world use WDM now :rolleyes:

as long as Cubase & Nuendo will use ASIO, it will never die.....all the serious manufacturers will still offer native drivers, and ASIO4ALL will still allow the others to work flawlessly :agree:

[leeperry]

you see :
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showpost.php?p=436710&postcount=7

a lot of serious manufacturers don't care about WaveRT drivers.....so no WASAPI for you :o

all the Pro apps(Nuendo/Cubase/ProTools/etc..) use ASIO, and all their hardware audio products do have ASIO drivers 8)

ESI already have EWDM drivers, where you can internally rewire anything to anything(like WDM/MME>ASIO) :

http://jlhooker.perso.cegetel.net/PCHC/DirectWire%202.jpg

WaveRT/Wasapi will NOT replace ASIO, and will never be quite as wide spread/supported.

I think I've made my point now, feel free to disagree :D

[James]

well that's the thing...ASIO is the industry standard, and if I remember correctly the HDMI out on these ATi graphic cards is using a Realtek chip ? ASIO4ALL is known to work perfectly fine w/ these chips :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127520&perpage=25&pagenumber=3
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=asio+ati+hdmi+asio4all&btnG=Search&lr=

apparently some 64bit audio drivers can also have problems w/ WASAPI :
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=wavert+wasapi&btnG=Search&lr=
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/forums/en-US/windowspro-audiodevelopment/thread/4356e480-e772-4af9-a8d9-d94b318959b7/

quite frankly, everything WASAPI does has been available w/ ASIO for like +15 years, from the win95 days :o

and it would enable anyone on win2k/xp/vista/7 or older to enjoy bit-perfectness w/ any soundcard(either through the manufacturer's drivers, or through ASIO4ALL)

right, Vista killed ASIO....musicians all over the world use WDM now :rolleyes:

as long as Cubase & Nuendo will use ASIO, it will never die.....all the serious manufacturers will still offer native drivers, and ASIO4ALL will still allow the others to work flawlessly :agree:
Thanks, quite interesting. Just tried ASIO4ALL with ATI HDMI and it works under Vista (apart from the speaker configuration)!
My understanding is that ASIO4ALL is a an ASIO to KS wrapper, which poses the question why ASIO4ALL can do KS and ReClock fails. Again, it's all Ogo's fault.... ;)

However, I'll still follow the WASAPI route for the simple reason of laziness, as I'm already using the Windows core audio service for the speaker config (which btw was a major PITA to do under Vista), so most of the annoying parts of the code are already written, like enumerating devices, etc.

[leeperry]

My understanding is that ASIO4ALL is a an ASIO to KS wrapper, which poses the question why ASIO4ALL can do KS and ReClock fails. Again, it's all Ogo's fault.... ;)

However, I'll still follow the WASAPI route for the simple reason of laziness, as I'm already using the Windows core audio service for the speaker config (which btw was a major PITA to do under Vista), so most of the annoying parts of the code are already written, like enumerating devices, etc.
well ASIO4ALL is a "last resort" solution....all the serious sound cards do have native ASIO drivers.

KS works perfectly fine w/ my sound card in Vista SP1, it's audio drivers dependent...it doesn't work w/ some older drivers from M-Audio, but it works perfectly fine w/ the latest ones.

ok so I've said all this for zero results, you still won't support it :D

ASIO has a lot of SDK's available, and prolly would be a lot easier to implement than WASAPI...for what it's worth :p

anyhow I'm happy w/ my M-Audio soundcard(it's got KMixer-free MME drivers on XP).....next time I'll get an ESI so I could internally reroute DS/MME>ASIO w/ its EWDM drivers :o

[James]

ASIO has a lot of SDK's available, and prolly would be a lot easier to implement than WASAPI...for what it's worth :p

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, that I'll try WASAPI first. Never say never... ;)

[leeperry]

Never say never... ;)
So you're telling me there's a chance. http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:KtcvkgJXeGd-dM

[James]

So you're telling me there's a chance.

This depends... If WASAPI turns out to be a major PITA, sure. :D

[leeperry]

well I'm quite confident that WASAPI will be a helluvalot more annoying to set up than ASIO(that seems to have very straightforward SDK's), being a m$ product and all :D

[mrcorbo]

@leeperry

I'm not really surprised given the niche status of those products that they would be reluctant to throw out all the work they've done on their drivers to start over in order to create WaveRT-based drivers. Their current drivers still work under Vista+, after all.

If you were to compare the combined userbase of people using those cards to the userbase using Realtek codecs, though, what single-digit percentage (if that) do you think they would equal?

And M$?.....Really? :rolleyes:

[rica]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, that I'll try WASAPI first. Never say never... ;)

Thanks. :agree: :clap:

[leeperry]

If you were to compare the combined userbase of people using those cards to the userbase using Realtek codecs, though, what single-digit percentage (if that) do you think they would equal?
hahah, yeah...want me to give you a % of ppl using Reclock and having top name soundcards against a % of ppl not using Reclock and using their motherboard audio chip through KMixer w/o Reclock? something like 0.1% against 99.9% I'm sure :o

does that mean we should dumb down everything and drop our third party sound cards and Reclock....because 99.9% of ppl who watch movies on PC don't use either of these.

making such statement doesn't make any sense, considering your sound card will either have ASIO drivers...or ASIO4ALL will bridge it up for ya anyway.

AFAIK if your Vista drivers don't support WaveRT, you're SOL.....there's no WaveRT4ALL yet, is there ? ;)

how good is progress if not everyone can benefit :o

[James]

hahah, yeah...want me to give you a % of ppl using Reclock and having top name soundcards against a % of ppl not using Reclock and using their motherboard audio chip through KMixer w/o Reclock? something like 0.1% against 99.9% I'm sure :o

does that mean we should dumb down everything and drop our third party sound cards and Reclock....because 99.9% of ppl who watch movies on PC don't use either of these.

making such statement doesn't make any sense, considering your sound card will either have ASIO drivers...or ASIO4ALL will bridge it up for ya anyway.

AFAIK if your Vista drivers don't support WaveRT, you're SOL.....there's no WaveRT4ALL yet, is there ? ;)
Well, I would say ReClock is designed for HT enthusiasts, but not musicians or pro audio people. I don't need (and don't want) a high-end audio card if I get 7.1 multichannel PCM 96kHz/24 without distortion, shielding issues and whatnot for free through my graphics card's HDMI connector.

Using ASIO (and ASIO4ALL) in such a scenario is simply not the most elegant way. I prefer it to work "out of the box".

As I am planning to use WASAPI push mode, I don't need WaveRT drivers. (and it'll work with WOW64, thanks for the link!)
It will(should) work with any soundcard which makes a "beep" under Vista SP1 and up. Under XP there are other easy ways to achieve bit perfectness (WaveOut for example, or KS)

[leeperry]

Well, I would say ReClock is designed for HT enthusiasts, but not musicians or pro audio people. I don't need (and don't want) a high-end audio card if I get 7.1 multichannel PCM 96kHz/24 without distortion, shielding issues and whatnot for free through my graphics card's HDMI connector.

Using ASIO (and ASIO4ALL) in such a scenario is simply not the most elegant way. I prefer it to work "out of the box".

As I am planning to use WASAPI push mode, I don't need WaveRT drivers. (and it'll work with WOW64, thanks for the link!)
It will(should) work with any soundcard which makes a "beep" under Vista SP1 and up. Under XP there are other easy ways to achieve bit perfectness (WaveOut for example, or KS)
well, Reclock resamples.....so the best thing to do is to bypass KMixer, right ? so we don't get double dice.

there's no way to bypass KMixer on XP, not even in MME/WaveOut....I'm not sure what you are referring to :confused:

both yesgrey & I happen to have MME audio drivers that do bypass it, but it's very rare to come by....all the soundcards on the market do go through KMixer in WDM/MME on both XP/Vista

well if you can do WASAPI w/o needing WaveRT, then all my arguing is m00t to begin with :D

yet, this will only work in Vista/7....and MANY "HT enthusiasts"(as you call them) will never agree to upgrade to these sluggish OS for their HTPC :o

and getting KS to work on XP or Vista is drivers dependent, some will....some won't.

[James]

well, Reclock resamples.....so the best thing to do is to bypass KMixer, right ? so we don't get double dice.

there's no way to bypass KMixer on XP, not even in MME/WaveOut....I'm not sure what you are referring to :confused:

I think I was confused when typing. Forget it.

[rica]

yet, this will only work in Vista/7....and MANY "HT enthusiasts"(as you call them) will never agree to upgrade to these sluggish OS for their HTPC :o


I think you've missed these: :bang:

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, that I'll try WASAPI first. Never say never... ;)

This depends... If WASAPI turns out to be a major PITA, sure. :D

[leeperry]

:bang:
careful buddy, your head might start hurting at some point http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/afrojojo.gif

[rica]

careful buddy, your head might start hurting at some point http://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/afrojojo.gif

Already done :)

[James]

ReClock 1.8.3.7 supports "WASAPI exclusive" output. Judge for yourself. I consider it a waste of time. ;)

[mrcorbo]

After some quick testing, WASAPI+exclusive seems to be working great (I can even uncheck "set matching speaker config" and output will still match source file) all the way up to 6channels/24bit/96kHz. Attempting to play back a stereo 24bit/192kHz FLAC file generates an error, though. "Initialize WasapiClient failed - unknown error 8889000f".

This same file will play back in Foobar with its WASAPI plugin.

[James]

After some quick testing, WASAPI+exclusive seems to be working great (I can even uncheck "set matching speaker config" and output will still match source file) all the way up to 6channels/24bit/96kHz. Attempting to play back a stereo 24bit/192kHz FLAC file generates an error, though. "Initialize WasapiClient failed - unknown error 8889000f".

This same file will play back in Foobar with its WASAPI plugin.
Out of interest - what soundcard are you using? I have very unsatisfying results with my ATI 4850 HDMI output, I can't get 24bit output to work at all. :(

Regarding this error - you can try to reduce the buffer size, 500ms (default setting) of 192/24 can eat too much memory. Try 250ms or less. Does it work now?

[mrcorbo]

Out of interest - what soundcard are you using? I have very unsatisfying results with my ATI 4850 HDMI output, I can't get 24bit output to work at all. :(

Regarding this error - you can try to reduce the buffer size, 500ms (default setting) of 192/24 can eat too much memory. Try 250ms or less. Does it work now?

Radeon 4870 - Windows 7 x64 - Realtek ATI HDMI 2.13 drivers.

Went down to 25ms on the buffer and it still wouldn't work. I actually tried that immediately since this was an issue with both Foobar and JRMC's implementations.

I believe both Foobar and JRMC's developers ended up padding 24-bit to 32-bit for better compatibility. I think the 24-bit source files I played were all being rendered as 32-bit by the codecs during playback (madflac and ffdshow). Maybe this is why I was able to play them while you can't.

Edit: Had to uncheck 32 bit float in ffdshow because of an unsupported format error, but 32-bit integer is supported.
Edit2: Unchecked all but 24-bit in ffdshow - "Initialize WasapiClient failed - unknown error 8889000f"

[anvandarnamn]

ReClock 1.8.3.7 supports "WASAPI exclusive" output. Judge for yourself. I consider it a waste of time. ;)

damn it james... i think.. i love you... ;)
at last my htpc is complete

have been waiting for something like this (wasapi) since i got my HDMI audio motherboard...

where do i donate?

[jmone]

Couple of quick notes of the new WASAPI implemenation:
1) at the commencment of playback there is some lost audio. It sounds like as reclock is doing its sync thing a bit of audio and get dropped.
2) When Pausing / Stopping a track it frequently leads to looping audio - this is the same issue that the JR Media Center folk are facing. It is like the audio buffer is not flushed correctly and you get a rapper like effect of the last audio segment.
3) You don't need to select the the matching audio channel option

Apart from that to my ears it sounds good (without a blind A/B test anyway!)

Thanks
Nathan

[red5goahead]

the wasapi mode can be used with all sound card device? under vista
I've a realtech HD audio

[James]

the wasapi mode can be used with all sound card device? under vista
I've a realtech HD audio
It should work with all devices - in theory. Unfortunately reality hurts sometimes. Just give it a try.

[James]

Couple of quick notes of the new WASAPI implemenation:
1) at the commencment of playback there is some lost audio. It sounds like as reclock is doing its sync thing a bit of audio and get dropped.

ReClock closes the audio device when entering pause. I've done this, so you can hear system sounds while you pause playback. I agree, this might have been a bad decision.


2) When Pausing / Stopping a track it frequently leads to looping audio - this is the same issue that the JR Media Center folk are facing. It is like the audio buffer is not flushed correctly and you get a rapper like effect of the last audio segment.

Can't reproduce this. Must be a Windows or a driver "thing".


3) You don't need to select the the matching audio channel option

Sorry, I can't follow you...?


Apart from that to my ears it sounds good (without a blind A/B test anyway!)

Well, at least it doesn't sound worse. But, TBH, I don't hear a difference to DSound shared mode 96/24.

[red5goahead]

It should work with all devices - in theory. Unfortunately reality hurts sometimes. Just give it a try.

Yes it work. It's important because Realtek HD Audio it's a very common audio device .

Take a look to steam game platform hardware survey:

http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/9688/28755402.th.jpg (http://img50.imageshack.us/my.php?image=28755402.jpg)

Realtek HD Audio represent almost 1 audio card on 4.

[mrcorbo]

Sorry, I can't follow you...?

What jmone was referring to is that when using WASAPI+exclusive the output is set to the number of channels of the source file so the automatic speaker config is redundant.

Also, to be thorough, I unchecked all but 32bit int output in ffdshow and that worked fine with WASAPI.

[James]

What jmone was referring to is that when using WASAPI+exclusive the output is set to the number of channels of the source file so the automatic speaker config is redundant.

Ah... sure. :doh: But it certainly shouldn't hurt to keep it enabled.

Also, to be thorough, I unchecked all but 32bit int output in ffdshow and that worked fine with WASAPI.
Yes, it does. I'll add an option to ReClock where you can specify the minimum output sample format (16/24/32 bit int or 32 bit float). In your case you would select 32 bit int and reclock would convert all formats to 32 bit.

This would be useful for programs, where you can't select the output format, e.g. TMT .125 plays Baraka Blu-ray with 96/24, but the ATI HDMI driver doesn't accept 24bit. In this case ReClock will convert it to 96/32.

[rica]

I do wanna believe ReClock 1.8.3.7 will give WASAPI support btw.:)


Thanks, thanks, thanks :rock:

Here is what my SB X-Fi does with ReClock:


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8514/jamescongrats.th.png (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jamescongrats.png)

I've given it a go with flac included media; the result is perfect.

James i love you.

[rica]

This test file is OK as well with graph studio:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/s1drfu

DS has nothing to do against WASAPI. :)

[jmone]

1.8.3.8 - Quick test, and got some oddities:
1) some audio gaps when first playing a track on WASAPI
2) reclock (or any audio renderer) did not even load once with TMT
3) on exiting TMT I got the looping sound fragment. It is easy to fix, you just play other track but it is very odd and only happens with WASAPI but you are not alone, the same things pops up in other WASAPI implementations.

Thanks
Nathan

[anvandarnamn]

anyone getting 24bit audio to work with wasapi?

tried both my intel HDMI and my ATI HDMI with no luck.... :mad:

[James]

anyone getting 24bit audio to work with wasapi?

tried both my intel HDMI and my ATI HDMI with no luck.... :mad:

The drivers only accept 32bit PCM. :bang:

[red5goahead]

do not work very well with audio timestreching options enabled. :confused:
a lot of sound glitches.

edit: I use Ac3 encoder , I'm trying to test the audio timestreching and known synch issue .

[ilovehd]

The drivers only accept 32bit PCM. :bang:

Is this why I am getting no sound and a message saying something like 48KHz, 24-bit, 6ch not supported by drivers/hardware?
What do you suggest I do?
All the different combinations (sample rate/bit depth/no. of channels) in Vista x64 using g35 hdmi work so I don't understand what is happening.:confused: Can you explain?

[James]

do not work very well with audio timestreching options enabled. :confused:
a lot of sound glitches.

Yup, but using WASAPI with timestretching is... a strange concept. ;)

edit: I use Ac3 encoder , I'm trying to test the audio timestreching and known synch issue .
Using AC3 encoder with WASAPI is even stranger. :D

[James]

Is this why I am getting no sound and a message saying something like 48KHz, 24-bit, 6ch not supported by drivers/hardware?
What do you suggest I do?
All the different combinations (sample rate/bit depth/no. of channels) in Vista x64 using g35 hdmi work so I don't understand what is happening.:confused: Can you explain?
Vista resamples / converts the sound for the card. You'll get the *exact same* quality when using DirectSound output in ReClock.

[ilovehd]

Vista resamples / converts the sound for the card. You'll get the *exact same* quality when using DirectSound output in ReClock.

I'm sorry I still don't get it (not your fault).
Are you saying that even with exclusive mode it is not possible to get untouched pcm to the receiver? Is everything up and down sampled/converted?
So exclusive mode has exactly the same quality as shared mode but with the added benefit of sending correct number of channels/bit depth/sampling rate to receiver.
Or have I got this wrong?

[James]

I'm sorry I still don't get it (not your fault).
Are you saying that even with exclusive mode it is not possible to get untouched pcm to the receiver?
It is possible. Otherwise the effort would be rather pointless. But only if the card supports the requested format. I'm working on a conversion for ReClock, see here:

http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=178604&postcount=75
http://forum.slysoft.com/showpost.php?p=178650&postcount=3015

[rica]

1.8.3.8 has regular audio gaps (with 96/24) while 1.8.3.7 didn't have any.

Please check with this test file:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/s1drfu

For the time being reclock 1.8.3.7 is working with flac included files.

[Mark_A_W]

1.8.3.8 has regular audio gaps (with 96/24) while 1.8.3.7 didn't have any.

Please check with this test file:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/s1drfu

For the time being reclock 1.8.3.7 is working with flac included files.

I don't seem to have this issue.

I watched Planet Terror last night, with the 24bit 48khz track upconverted to 32bit 96khz, and it was perfect.

I will test Baraka, for a true 24bit 96khz soundtrack.

[anvandarnamn]

I don't seem to have this issue.

I watched Planet Terror last night, with the 24bit 48khz track upconverted to 32bit 96khz, and it was perfect.

I will test Baraka, for a true 24bit 96khz soundtrack.


??? when im trying 32bit output nothing happens all i hear is ... silence....
im guessing you are outputting 32bit via ffdshow?

[James]

1.8.3.8 has regular audio gaps (with 96/24) while 1.8.3.7 didn't have any.

Please check with this test file:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/s1drfu

For the time being reclock 1.8.3.7 is working with flac included files.

WASAPI is currently scheduled through the audio render thread, which really wasn't one of my brightest ideas. To get the timing right, I'll create a separate thread. This will fix this (and similar) issues.

[jmone]

I've been having app crashes / hangs when using WASAPI...it may be coincedental and caused by another issue but FYI there is a hot fix from MS that I "hope" helps - will try it out

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/957569

[Mark_A_W]

??? when im trying 32bit output nothing happens all i hear is ... silence....
im guessing you are outputting 32bit via ffdshow?


Yes, upconverting via ffdshow.

24 bit and 32 float result in silence. 32 bit integer works.

This is the same as Kernel Streaming for me.

[anvandarnamn]

Yes, upconverting via ffdshow.

24 bit and 32 float result in silence. 32 bit integer works.

This is the same as Kernel Streaming for me.

im still getting silence when using 32bit integer... are you using analog or digital out? im outputting 5.1 via hdmi...

[Mark_A_W]

Analogue out, using a M-Audio Revo card.

[anvandarnamn]

the problem was my intel board , it did not support 32bit output, my ATI card does though...

too bad the ffdshow flacaudio decoder cuts anything above 16bits audio...

but i guess i can go back to the madflac decoder when reclock is able to upconvert 24bit > 32bit...

getting very close to perfection :bowdown:

[Mark_A_W]

Just set ffdshow to load in the filter chain after madflac.

Untick flack decoding in ffdshow, enabled umcompressed input (codecs), and set it to 32 bit output.

Madflac does the decoding, ffdshow upconverts.

Perfection now.

[anvandarnamn]

Just set ffdshow to load in the filter chain after madflac.

Untick flack decoding in ffdshow, enabled umcompressed input (codecs), and set it to 32 bit output.

Madflac does the decoding, ffdshow upconverts.

Perfection now.

hmm if i do that, nothing will play... if i however use ac3filter to output 32bit , everything is fine... strange...

[rica]

WASAPI is currently scheduled through the audio render thread, which really wasn't one of my brightest ideas. To get the timing right, I'll create a separate thread. This will fix this (and similar) issues.

Thanks, but what i meant was 1.8.3.7 is working with madflac very well; without any gaps.

I don't seem to have this issue.


I don't understand why you are using ffdshow for flac and upconvert to 32 while madflac can do that as 24/96 by alone? (with 1.8.3.7 without any problem)
If you have used madflac for flac/for test reason (without ffdshow upconversion), you should have lived issues with 1.8.3.8?

Here is the working chain with 1.8.3.7:

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6651/james02.th.png (http://img26.imageshack.us/my.php?image=james02.png)
_ _ _ _ _

[Mark_A_W]

I don't understand why you are using ffdshow for flac and upconvert to 32 while madflac can do that as 24/96 by alone? (with 1.8.3.7 without any problem)
If you have used madflac for flac/for test reason (without ffdshow upconversion), you should have lived issues with 1.8.3.8?

Here is the working chain with 1.8.3.7:


Because my soundcard doesn't seem to accept 24 bit from Kernel Streaming or WASAPI. 32 bit Integer works, so I have to zero pad using ffdshow (or ac3filter, either works) to get sound.


What's interesting is 24 bit WASAPI works in Foobar, but not 32 bit. Go figure.

[jmone]

I've been having app crashes / hangs when using WASAPI...it may be coincedental and caused by another issue but FYI there is a hot fix from MS that I "hope" helps - will try it out

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/957569


You really want to install this HotFix - it fixed my crashes/stalls.

[James]

Because my soundcard doesn't seem to accept 24 bit from Kernel Streaming or WASAPI. 32 bit Integer works, so I have to zero pad using ffdshow (or ac3filter, either works) to get sound.

Don't worry, with the next ReClock version you can select the desired output format (16/24/32 bit PCM or 32 bit IEEE float)


What's interesting is 24 bit WASAPI works in Foobar, but not 32 bit. Go figure.
They must be cheating and silently select a different format.

[James]

Thanks, but what i meant was 1.8.3.7 is working with madflac very well; without any gaps.


Current WASAPI support is very ... experimental. Next version will be fine. I hope. :o

[rica]

Current WASAPI support is very ... experimental. Next version will be fine. I hope. :o

I'll keep being happy with the first experiment until the next version:)

[James]

I'll keep being happy with the first experiment until the next version:)

Please try 1.8.3.9. I hope you'll be pleased. ;)

[James]

Because my soundcard doesn't seem to accept 24 bit from Kernel Streaming or WASAPI. 32 bit Integer works, so I have to zero pad using ffdshow (or ac3filter, either works) to get sound.


Please check out ReClock 1.8.3.9. With this version you can specify the desired output format.

[jmone]

Please check out ReClock 1.8.3.9. With this version you can specify the desired output format.

Thanks James - I'll give it a go now. Is the a "prefered" output format for those of us with no idea of the ins/outs of the recent discussion?

[rica]

Please try 1.8.3.9. I hope you'll be pleased. ;)

Thanks a lot James. :)
I'll try it asap :clap:

[James]

Thanks James - I'll give it a go now. Is the a "prefered" output format for those of us with no idea of the ins/outs of the recent discussion?


KS/WASAPI:
Take the highest that works with your driver. Start with 32bit IEEE float.
Like this:
First try 32 bit float (will fail with ATI HDMI). If it fails, try 32 bit int (works with ATI HDMI). If it fails, try 24 (fails with ATI HDMI).

Vista shared mode (Wave/DSound):
Use 32 bit float. Both ReClock's resampler and Vista's sound engine use 32bit float internally, so there is no need to convert the format back and forth

XP:
No idea. In shared mode, probably 16bit...?

[jmone]

KS/WASAPI:
Take the highest that works with your driver. Start with 32bit IEEE float.
Like this:
First try 32 bit float (will fail with ATI HDMI). If it fails, try 32 bit int (works with ATI HDMI). If it fails, try 24 (fails with ATI HDMI).

Vista shared mode (Wave/DSound):
Use 32 bit float. Both ReClock's resampler and Vista's sound engine use 32bit float internally, so there is no need to convert the format back and forth

XP:
No idea. In shared mode, probably 16bit...?

Thanks as you said (Vista/WASAPI on ATI HDMI):
- 32bit IEEE fails
- 32bit PCM works and sounds good with both 32bit (files) and 16bit input (TMT Blu Ray). Good lipsync and no audio stutter issues etc (yet)
- 24bit PCM failes
- 16bit PCM works but it sounds clipped on 32bit sources

Looks (or should I say sounds) like 32bit PCM is the go for me!

Thanks
Nathan

[rica]

Thanks a lot James. :)
I'll try it asap :clap:

Yes, here is my test report:

No audio gaps at all with 1.8.3.9, thanks.


1)Original BD or created ISO via Clown-BD and latest TSMuxer 1.8.19.b:

ftp://213.221.6.90/tsMuxer/

TMT:

m2ts:

with 113 to 121, ReClock indicates 96/6/24

with 126 to 129 ReClock indicates 48/6/16

it means TMT (newer versions) doesn't give permittance to reclock and downconverts the audio inside the application itself.


flac mkv:

with all versions of TMT (madflac must be loaded), reclock indicates 96/6/24.

2)Created ISO via Clown-BD and latest TSMuxer:

MPC-HC:

setup:

Uninstall Haali first.

internal filters > source filters:
flac, matroska and mpeg ps/ts/pva must be unticked.

internal filters > transform filters:
flac and vc1,h264 must be unticked.

external filters:
Arcsoft mpeg demux and Arcsoft audio decoderHD has to be selected and set to preferred.

What is boring here is everytime you have to set audio to 5.1 in Arcsoft Audio DecoderHD properties page.

m2ts:

with all versions of TMT, ReClock indicates 96/6/24

flac mkv:

with all versions of TMT (madflac has to be loaded), ReClock indicates 96/6/24.

[James]

TMT:

m2ts:

with 113 to 121, ReClock indicates 96/6/24

with 126 to 129 ReClock indicates 48/6/16

it means TMT (newer versions) doesn't give permittance to reclock and downconverts the audio.

Try to get hold of TMT version .125, it is the last one not downsampling. I tested it with Baraka 96/6/24. Arcsoft has a download link in their forum.

[jmone]

Try to get hold of TMT version .125, it is the last one not downsampling. I tested it with Baraka 96/6/24. Arcsoft has a download link in their forum.

http://base.arcsoft.com/downloads//digitaltheatre/arcsoft/totalmediatheatre_2.1.6.105_2.1.6.113_Update_ALL.e xe
http://base.arcsoft.com/downloads//digitaltheatre/arcsoft/totalmediatheatre_2.1.6.105_2.1.6.120_Update_ALL.e xe
http://base.arcsoft.com/downloads//digitaltheatre/arcsoft/totalmediatheatre_2.1.6.105_2.1.6.121_Update_ALL.e xe
http://base.arcsoft.com/downloads//digitaltheatre/arcsoft/totalmediatheatre_2.1.6.105_2.1.6.125_Update_ALL.e xe
http://base.arcsoft.com/downloads//digitaltheatre/arcsoft/totalmediatheatre_2.1.6.105_2.1.6.126_Update_ALL.e xe
http://base.arcsoft.com/downloads//digitaltheatre/arcsoft/totalmediatheatre_2.1.6.105_2.1.6.128_update_e.exe
http://base.arcsoft.com/downloads//digitaltheatre/arcsoft/totalmediatheatre_2.1.6.105_2.1.6.129_update_e.exe

[rica]

Try to get hold of TMT version .125, it is the last one not downsampling. I tested it with Baraka 96/6/24. Arcsoft has a download link in their forum.

I know but i have always lived issues with that version :bang:

http://www.arcsoft.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1009&KW=ricabullah

[jmone]

I'm also tempted to give 125 a go again - I stopped my uninstall/reinstall once I got something working without lipsync problems but my new WHS has arrived so I just did a back up and can restore if it all turns pear shaped!

[rica]

I'm also tempted to give 125 a go again - I stopped my uninstall/reinstall once I got something working without lipsync problems but my new WHS has arrived so I just did a back up and can restore if it all turns pear shaped!

I gave it a go again today; belive me restoring back doesn't solve the issue; you have to reinstall everything from the beginning :bang:

[mrcorbo]

The latest (1.8.3.9) build is working much better so far. The 24bit/stereo/192kHz file I had that wouldn't play before, plays now. The 24bit/6ch/96kHz file plays better (sound was garbled here and there over the course of several minutes). The stability seems greatly improved as well (in limited testing).

Good stuff! :rock:

[jmone]

I gave it a go again today; belive me restoring back doesn't solve the issue; you have to reinstall everything from the beginning :bang:

125 is a mess for me - if HW accell is on it crashes

120 is my base SW buy, I notice that I get 24 Bit on a DD track but when I switched to LPCM it dropped to 16 Bit (Harry Potter OoTP). I've not had time to try other disks but if that is the case for HD audio I may as well stick to the later versions.

FYI - WHS keeps a sector by sector backup so it "should" be fine to do a restore....

[jmone]

Also tried POTC-Worlds end, same thing, 24Bit in DD and 16Bit for LPCM.

[anvandarnamn]

KS/WASAPI:
Take the highest that works with your driver. Start with 32bit IEEE float.
Like this:
First try 32 bit float (will fail with ATI HDMI). If it fails, try 32 bit int (works with ATI HDMI). If it fails, try 24 (fails with ATI HDMI).

Vista shared mode (Wave/DSound):
Use 32 bit float. Both ReClock's resampler and Vista's sound engine use 32bit float internally, so there is no need to convert the format back and forth

XP:
No idea. In shared mode, probably 16bit...?

is it possilbe not to convert 16bits sources to 32bits somehow (automatically)

when selecting 32bit output everything is working fine except 16bit HDCD audio, my receiver just goes insane with very strange sound and a flashing HDCD indication.

the HDCD information is coded inside the audio so it has to be bitperfect to work...

thanks for a great app!

[jmone]

I knew I should of left my install alone. After trying all (of the same) combo's I'm back to Cat V9.2 and V129 of TMT. Cat V8 gives my a slight out of sync Audio, and earlier versions of TMT tend to crash on V9.x - & of course you have to turn of HA in this cobmo or TMT buggers up MPEG playback - & you get downgraded Audio.....I should just be patent and wait for the SlyPlayer....

[James]

Also tried POTC-Worlds end, same thing, 24Bit in DD and 16Bit for LPCM.
If I'm not mistaken, this is because it is a 16bit LPCM track. TMT always decodes DD with 24bit, no idea why.

[James]

is it possilbe not to convert 16bits sources to 32bits somehow (automatically)

when selecting 32bit output everything is working fine except 16bit HDCD audio, my receiver just goes insane with very strange sound and a flashing HDCD indication.

the HDCD information is coded inside the audio so it has to be bitperfect to work...


So this is some kind of bitstream format?

[yesgrey3]

when selecting 32bit output everything is working fine except 16bit HDCD audio, my receiver just goes insane with very strange sound and a flashing HDCD indication.
How are you playing your HDCD audio? from a file in your computer, or directly from the cd-rom drive?

[James]

is it possilbe not to convert 16bits sources to 32bits somehow (automatically)

when selecting 32bit output everything is working fine except 16bit HDCD audio, my receiver just goes insane with very strange sound and a flashing HDCD indication.

the HDCD information is coded inside the audio so it has to be bitperfect to work...

thanks for a great app!

Please post a logfile. Thank you.

[rica]

@yesgrey3,

Video VC1, audio THD:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8633/75483958.th.png (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=75483958.png)

I guess what you are asking?

[James]

@yesgrey3,


http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/8633/75483958.th.png (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=75483958.png)



No idea about the context, but why by all means do you have "slave reference clock to audio..." ticked?

[rica]

No idea about the context, but why by all means do you have "slave reference clock to audio..." ticked?

Sorry James,
i carried this from doom9:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1256629#post1256629

Normally i don't have "slave reference clock to audio" ticked, i just wanted to show nothing will change as CPU utilization.

If you clarify this i'll be happy?

[anvandarnamn]

So this is some kind of bitstream format?


the HDCD information is carried inside the audio signal ( cd-format 16bits 44khz) and will usually give 20bit or 24bits audio when decoded by the decoder.
if there is no HDCD decoder the audio will sound just like an ordinary CD

when i select 16bits output in reclock my AV receiver detects the signal as HDCD and everything is working as it should, but when i select 32bit output, the avreceiver still detects the HDCD format but has problems keeping the signal, and makes "funny" noises.

im playing HDCDs converted to flac (yes the HDCD info is intact) in mediaportal (internal DShow decoder) madflac used for decoding.

so what im asking for, is to be able to choose what formats (in this case 16bits) not to upconvert to 32bits in reclock (still needs to upconvert 24bits to 32bits though)

thanks!

[James]

the HDCD information is carried inside the audio signal ( cd-format 16bits 44khz) and will usually give 20bit or 24bits audio when decoded by the decoder.
if there is no HDCD decoder the audio will sound just like an ordinary CD

when i select 16bits output in reclock my AV receiver detects the signal as HDCD and everything is working as it should, but when i select 32bit output, the avreceiver still detects the HDCD format but has problems keeping the signal, and makes "funny" noises.

im playing HDCDs converted to flac (yes the HDCD info is intact) in mediaportal (internal DShow decoder) madflac used for decoding.

so what im asking for, is to be able to choose what formats (in this case 16bits) not to upconvert to 32bits in reclock (still needs to upconvert 24bits to 32bits though)

thanks!
Ah ok, understood.

[Mark_A_W]

the HDCD information is carried inside the audio signal ( cd-format 16bits 44khz) and will usually give 20bit or 24bits audio when decoded by the decoder.
if there is no HDCD decoder the audio will sound just like an ordinary CD

when i select 16bits output in reclock my AV receiver detects the signal as HDCD and everything is working as it should, but when i select 32bit output, the avreceiver still detects the HDCD format but has problems keeping the signal, and makes "funny" noises.

im playing HDCDs converted to flac (yes the HDCD info is intact) in mediaportal (internal DShow decoder) madflac used for decoding.

so what im asking for, is to be able to choose what formats (in this case 16bits) not to upconvert to 32bits in reclock (still needs to upconvert 24bits to 32bits though)

thanks!

Gees....HDCDs are pretty rare.

I have 300 CDs and not one is HDCD.

But I do think the 16 bit to 16 bit, and 24 bit to 32 bit change/option might be wise.

[yesgrey3]

Video VC1, audio THD:
I guess what you are asking?
Normally i don't have "slave reference clock to audio" ticked, i just wanted to show nothing will change as CPU utilization.

You forgot to set the media adaptation speed to "original speed".;)

Currently, from my tests, and James can confirm that, the only ways of getting bit exact sound using reclock, without any resampling, are:
a) select PCM output using Kernel Streaming or WASAPI, and checking "slave clock reference to audio" and setting media adaptation speed to "original speed.
(I am not suggesting that people should use this mode, I am only indicating that this way is not performed any kind of resampling of the audio signal).
b) using SPDIF output instead of PCM output.
c) using the method I have described in another thread of this forum, by changing the soundcard's clock frequency.

Some people think that by using WASAPI or Kernel Streaming they are not resampling the sound, but this is not correct. They are only by-passing the windows internal resampler. Reclock needs to resample the audio to perform its magic and keep the sync between audio and video.

[yesgrey3]

im playing HDCDs converted to flac (yes the HDCD info is intact) in mediaportal (internal DShow decoder) madflac used for decoding.
How do you convert your HDCD to flac? If you use "eac3to" you can convert it to flac extracting the HDCD info in the process, so no more need to use your receiver to decode the HDCD info, and you could use reclock without any problem, because it would pass through a 20bit or 24bit audio file.;)

[rica]

You forgot to set the media adaptation speed to "original speed".;)

Currently, from my tests, and James can confirm that, the only ways of getting bit exact sound using reclock, without any resampling, are:
a) select PCM output using Kernel Streaming or WASAPI, and checking "slave clock reference to audio" and setting media adaptation speed to "original speed.
(I am not suggesting that people should use this mode, I am only indicating that this way is not performed any kind of resampling of the audio signal).
b) using SPDIF output instead of PCM output.
c) using the method I have described in another thread of this forum, by changing the soundcard's clock frequency.

Some people think that by using WASAPI or Kernel Streaming they are not resampling the sound, but this is not correct. They are only by-passing the windows internal resampler. Reclock needs to resample the audio to perform its magic and keep the sync between audio and video.

Thanks my friend. But even "slave ref..." is not selected, ReClock just adjusts audio clock; which means only +/- 5-10 Hz.
I don't take it as re-sampling.
Re-sampling, to me, means down-sampling or up-sampling of audio.
In our case audio stays at its own bit-depth.
If you consider your AV/Receiver's ADC+DACs (DSP Unit), it means nothing.
I get it as bit-perfect :)

[Mark_A_W]

Bit Depth and Sample Rate are different.


Although the term "Bit Perfect" means that both are unmolested.

[rica]

Bit Depth and Sample Rate are different.


Although the term "Bit Perfect" means that both are unmolested.

Do you think the "unmolested" ideal signal which is sent to your AV/receiver over analog will stay unmolested unless it is sent to an ampli?

[yesgrey3]

ReClock just adjusts audio clock; which means only +/- 5-10 Hz.
No. Reclock cannot adjust the audio clock, it indicates that is adjusting the clock, but it's doing it by resampling the audio.
Resampling from 48000->48002 is still resampling.;)
I don't take it as re-sampling. Re-sampling, to me, means down-sampling or up-sampling of audio.

That's what reclock does.:)

[Mark_A_W]

Do you think the "unmolested" ideal signal which is sent to your AV/receiver over analog will stay unmolested unless it is sent to an ampli?

With my hardware I am 90% certain the Analogue 5.1 inputs are not re-digitised. My Pre/Pro cannot do anything to the 5.1 inputs other than volume control - no bass management, no delays, nothing.

The only way to be 100% certain is to build a 7.1 volume control - I'm currently looking for a kit. There used to be a 5.1 kit available locally, but no more.

[Spirit Wolfe]

I use wasapi (foobar2000) exclusively for my cds. It switches my receiver from 5.1ch 48Khz to 2.0ch 44.1Khz disabling the vista mixer and any other sounds. Works fine with dts wav files, flac, etc. couldn't live without it. Exclusive mode is the only way to get bit perfect playback on vista.
I begged and begged for certain bd applications to use the exclusive mode but the answer was NO so when James said yes I thought to myself :rock: on ...

I am curious is Windows Audio Session API (WASAPI) support available to Windows XP (SP3) users?

I use / have a Creative Labs' X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum card. I love this card because of the 64MB of A-RAM (Audio RAM) built into it and I like the 7.1 surround sound features and the 5.25" front panel access plate it has, to boot! :rock:

Second, do you know if there is a plug-in version for Winamp 5.x users?

[rica]

With my hardware I am 90% certain the Analogue 5.1 inputs are not re-digitised. My Pre/Pro cannot do anything to the 5.1 inputs other than volume control - no bass management, no delays, nothing.

The only way to be 100% certain is to build a 7.1 volume control - I'm currently looking for a kit. There used to be a 5.1 kit available locally, but no more.

There is still 10% space ha? :disagree:

Afaik all the receivers have DSP units which means even you set it to "direct" mode, analog signals converted from digital by your sound card's DAC have to enter DSP. ADC+DAC. ADC converts them to digital first and later DAC again converts them back to analog and sent to pre-amp.
If you send bitperfect digital signals over HDMI to your receiver, this time the signal directly (without dropping to DSP) goes to the decoder and later preamp.

_ _ _ _

[James]

Thanks my friend. But even "slave ref..." is not selected, ReClock just adjusts audio clock; which means only +/- 5-10 Hz.
I don't take it as re-sampling.
Re-sampling, to me, means down-sampling or up-sampling of audio.

Trust me, it does. It "just adjusts the audio clock" .... but how?
Drumroll ... using the resampler! But as your ears have witnessed, it does a very good job.

To completely stop it from resampling, you must select "slave..." *and* run at original speed. In this case it behaves like a normal audio renderer.

The question you really have to ask yourself - do you want this?
At least for PAL DVDs I certainly don't.

[rica]

I

Second, do you know if there is a plug-in version for Winamp 5.x users?

It is under development:

http://forums.winamp.com/showthread.php?postid=2483404#post2483404

[Spirit Wolfe]

With my hardware I am 90% certain the Analogue 5.1 inputs are not re-digitised. My Pre/Pro cannot do anything to the 5.1 inputs other than volume control - no bass management, no delays, nothing.

The only way to be 100% certain is to build a 7.1 volume control - I'm currently looking for a kit. There used to be a 5.1 kit available locally, but no more.


First of all why go through all that trouble to 'build' a 7.1 surround volume controller from a kit when your sound card on has the limited capabilities of only 5.1 surround? Would it be more logical to have a 7.1 surround sound card to start with?


There is still 10% space ha? :disagree:

Afaik all the Pre/Pros have DSP units which means even you set it to "direct" mode, analog signals converted from digital by your sound card's DAC have to enter DSP. ADC+DAC. ADC converts them to digital first and later DAC again converts them back to analog and sent to pre-amp.
If you send bitperfect digital signals over HDMI to your receiver, this time the signal directly (without dropping to DSP) goes to the decoder and later preamp.

_ _ _ _



Second, it seems to me that having your CPU waste processing power and speed on converting your audio from digital > analog then to your external audio receiver? Some sound cards like mine (Creative Labs' X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum with 64MB A-Ram on-board) has the 7.1 surround sound and all I need is a cable from them to utilize the digital output by way of the SPDIF port.

I dunno....maybe I am missing something. :confused:

[rica]

Trust me, it does. It "just adjusts the audio clock" .... but how?
Drumroll ... using the resampler! But as your ears have witnessed, it does a very good job.


Thanks; yes my ears have to be satisfied until i get a 24p TV. :)

[rica]

First of all why go through all that trouble to 'build' a 7.1 surround volume controller from a kit when your sound card on has the limited capabilities of only 5.1 surround? Would it be more logical to have a 7.1 surround sound card to start with?

Second, it seems to me that having your CPU waste processing power and speed on converting your audio from digital > analog then to your external audio receiver? Some sound cards like mine (Creative Labs' X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum with 64MB A-Ram on-board) has the 7.1 surround sound and all I need is a cable from them to utilize the digital output by way of the SPDIF port.

I dunno....maybe I am missing something. :confused:

Yes, i suppose you confused the posts; it is not me who is looking for a 7.1 kit. :)

[Mark_A_W]

First of all why go through all that trouble to 'build' a 7.1 surround volume controller from a kit when your sound card on has the limited capabilities of only 5.1 surround? Would it be more logical to have a 7.1 surround sound card to start with?






Second, it seems to me that having your CPU waste processing power and speed on converting your audio from digital > analog then to your external audio receiver? Some sound cards like mine (Creative Labs' X-Fi Fata1ity Platinum with 64MB A-Ram on-board) has the 7.1 surround sound and all I need is a cable from them to utilize the digital output by way of the SPDIF port.

I dunno....maybe I am missing something. :confused:



Well, a 7.1 soundcard is only $200. That's no huge issue.

And I don't have a crappy receiver, I have a once-flagship Rotel Pre Pro. I would like to replace it with a 7.1 volume control preamp. Volume control is all the Rotel does now.

But I could run my poweramps direct from the soundcard. A preamp/volume control is just insurance.

I cannot afford a receiver of the quality I would want. And I like to build things anyway ;)


And you are missing the fact that SPDIF sucks. We now have 7.1 channel, 24bit, 96khz audio going mainstream. The only way to handle that is HDMI or Analogue. For me, HDMI is unnecessary (I have an analogue projector too).

[James]

For me, HDMI is unnecessary (I have an analogue projector too).

A three-eyed monster? :cool:

[rica]

Hey guys, can i say this is bitperfect anymore?

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4601/james03.th.png (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=james03.png)

[James]

Hey guys, can i say this is bitperfect anymore?

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4601/james03.th.png (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=james03.png)

It is. ReClock even says this under renderer infos.

[rica]

It is. ReClock even says this under renderer infos.

Do you mean EVR shows 23.976 and Reclock Audio renderer pininfo shows 24/96?
EDIT: believe me my ears can not differ 10 Hz of 96000.

[Spirit Wolfe]

Do you mean EVR shows 23.976 and Reclock Audio renderer pininfo shows 24/96?
EDIT: believe me my ears can not differ 10 Hz of 96000.

Don't feel bad...I don't think anyone's can! :p

[rica]

BTW i returned back to TMT .121 and removed CheckUpdate.dll and checkupdate.set and i'm very happy with ReClock+121.
No need to MPC-HC anymore.

[rica]

Don't feel bad...I don't think anyone's can! :p

Thanks :agree: :agree:
If i were a mosquito this might have been possible.:)

[Spirit Wolfe]

Well, a 7.1 soundcard is only $200. That's no huge issue.

And I don't have a crappy receiver, I have a once-flagship Rotel Pre Pro. I would like to replace it with a 7.1 volume control preamp. Volume control is all the Rotel does now.

But I could run my poweramps direct from the soundcard. A preamp/volume control is just insurance.

I cannot afford a receiver of the quality I would want. And I like to build things anyway ;)


And you are missing the fact that SPDIF sucks. We now have 7.1 channel, 24bit, 96khz audio going mainstream. The only way to handle that is HDMI or Analogue. For me, HDMI is unnecessary (I have an analogue projector too).

I see what you mean...Having the ability to adjust your volume control before it goes into your amplifiers saves you from possibly blowing and ''popping'' your speakers from the other end. :agree:

BTW...I like building my own stuff also...a little more exnsive, sometimes, mind you, but at least you can get what you want when you want it... :D

[Mark_A_W]

A three-eyed monster? :cool:

Yep.

If you want one, let me know. I know people who know people on all continents - it's a fairly small community.

Not for everyone though, it's like having a boat mounted to the ceiling :rock:

[yesgrey3]

EDIT: believe me my ears can not differ 10 Hz of 96000.
I never said you would hear any difference, I only said that it was not bit exact.;)
I prefer the no resampling aproach not because I can hear any difference with my current gear, but because I need the cpu power that I free by not resampling...:)

[rica]

I never said you would hear any difference, I only said that it was not bit exact.;)
I prefer the no resampling aproach not because I can hear any difference with my current gear, but because I need the cpu power that I free by not resampling...:)

Lets say "it is 99% bit exact" :agree:

[andy o]

I use wasapi (foobar2000) exclusively for my cds. It switches my receiver from 5.1ch 48Khz to 2.0ch 44.1Khz disabling the vista mixer and any other sounds. Works fine with dts wav files, flac, etc. couldn't live without it. Exclusive mode is the only way to get bit perfect playback on vista.
I begged and begged for certain bd applications to use the exclusive mode but the answer was NO so when James said yes I thought to myself :rock: on

Sorry, but I'm scratching my head about this one. How do you make Foobar2000 to switch 5.1 to stereo automatically? Mine with the wasapi plugin doesn't do it.

[Spirit Wolfe]

I am curious about that, too!

But, I am more curious on how, or if, you can get WASAPI to work with Windows XP SP3.

Can you???

[Spirit Wolfe]

Sorry, but I'm scratching my head about this one. How do you make Foobar2000 to switch 5.1 to stereo automatically? Mine with the wasapi plugin doesn't do it.

I am curious about that, too!

But, I am more curious on how, or if, you can get WASAPI to work with Windows XP SP3.

Can you???

[andy o]

I thought wasapi was a vista thing. Don't know much about it though, probably wrong.

[rica]

I thought wasapi was a vista thing. Don't know much about it though, probably wrong.

Yes, it is exactly a Vista thing.

[yesgrey3]

But, I am more curious on how, or if, you can get WASAPI to work with Windows XP SP3.
No, you can't use WASAPI with XP SP3. With XP you should use Kernel Streaming to get bit exactness.

[rica]

Here, i wanted to clarify the confusion i created:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15994670#post15994670


_ _ _ _

[nlnl]

I (Vista 32, Nvidia 9400, Nvidia HDMI audio driver) can not get 96/24, 48/24 sound using WASAPI mode. Reclock says "Hard/driver does not support".
And if I send 96/16, 48/16 everything is OK.
The question is: does Nvidia HDMI audio driver truncates everything to 16 bit in non exclusive Vista mode (not using WASAPI)?
Can anybody get 96/24, 48/24 sound using Nvidia HDMI audio driver in WASAPI or Vista mixer mode (non exclusive Vista mode )?

[Mark_A_W]

I (Vista 32, Nvidia 9400, Nvidia HDMI audio driver) can not get 96/24, 48/24 sound using WASAPI mode. Reclock says "Hard/driver does not support".
And if I send 96/16, 48/16 everything is OK.
The question is: does Nvidia HDMI audio driver truncates everything to 16 bit in non exclusive Vista mode (not using WASAPI)?
Can anybody get 96/24, 48/24 sound using Nvidia HDMI audio driver in WASAPI or Vista mixer mode (non exclusive Vista mode )?

Try setting Reclock to only output 32 bit.

[nlnl]

Try setting Reclock to only output 32 bit.
Yes, I have tried and got
Reclock Initialize Wasapi Client
The audio format is not suuported by the hard/driver 48000 samples 32 bit PCM 6 channels :doh:

Confirmed by renethx here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16002134&postcount=1164

[mrcorbo]

Yes, I have tried and got
Reclock Initialize Wasapi Client
The audio format is not suuported by the hard/driver 48000 samples 32 bit PCM 6 channels :doh:

Confirmed by renethx here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16002134&postcount=1164

Try foobar and its WASAPI implementation. If you get the same results, it probably is a hardware or driver issue.

[Mark_A_W]

My only other suggestion is keep trying.

I found that sometimes the formats aren't accepted, particularly if you change settings without restarting the player. This happens with Foobar a lot.

[nlnl]

I (Vista 32, Nvidia 9400, Nvidia HDMI audio driver) can not get 96/24, 48/24 sound using WASAPI mode. Reclock says "Hard/driver does not support".
And if I send 96/16, 48/16 everything is OK.
The question is: does Nvidia HDMI audio driver truncates everything to 16 bit in non exclusive Vista mode (not using WASAPI)?
Can anybody get 96/24, 48/24 sound using Nvidia HDMI audio driver in WASAPI or Vista mixer mode (non exclusive Vista mode )?

And can anybody get 24-bit 7(5).1 LPCM sound via HDMI using ATI cards?

May be something is wrong with the way Reclock interacts with Nvidia HDMI driver?
James
Should I play with buffer size or latency for PCM ?

http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Bypassing_Windows_Mixer

Cons

* Forfeits advantages of modern Windows audio pipeline: audio stream formats that aren't natively supported by your audio hardware will fail to play. You're likely to get errors with:
o Mono streams.
o Multichannel (more than two channels) streams on a soundcard with stereo output only.
o Uncommon channel configurations.
o Uncommon sample rates.

To workaround these issues, you'll have to use additional DSPs such as resampler or "convert mono to stereo" in foobar2000.

* Interacting with soundcard drivers directly rather than letting Windows Mixer do it will often expose soundcard driver bugs that can't be triggered otherwise and lead to system-wide instability. There have been countless documented cases of otherwise stable soundcard drivers causing BSODs when using KS, ASIO or WASAPI. This happens because:
o KS and WASAPI: while these output methods rely on the same driver code as playing sounds through Windows Mixer, various quirks such as buffer sizes are different; drivers tend to make unsafe assumptions that whoever is invoking them behaves exactly as Windows Mixer does; these drivers would also stop working correctly after OS updates that change these behaviors.
o ASIO: many major hardware vendors release massively buggy ASIO drivers and suspend any work on their drivers as soon as they get some subset of ASIO software working with their product without obvious problem symptoms.

[nlnl]

renethx's summary
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16007740&postcount=1182
Here is a summary of audio formats supported by hardware/driver:

Radeon HD 4xxx HDMI

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16 bit LPCM, 32 bit LPCM
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16 bit LPCM, 24 bit LPCM (only with Buffer Length < 900 ms)

GeForce 9400 HDMI

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16 bit LPCM
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: None
__________________

[andy o]

James (or anyone who happens to know)

I got an ATI 4550, with drivers 2.18 (also tried 2.13). Is WASAPI exclusive mode supposed to change number of channels automatically, regardless of "set matching speaker config for PCM sound" being checked or not?

[James]

James (or anyone who happens to know)

I got an ATI 4550, with drivers 2.18 (also tried 2.13). Is WASAPI exclusive mode supposed to change number of channels automatically, regardless of "set matching speaker config for PCM sound" being checked or not?

Yes. But I keep it checked anyway.

[andy o]

Yes. But I keep it checked anyway.

argh. That's what I was fearing. I'm screwed then. I can't figure out what's going on with my WASAPI exclusive setup. I've been dealing with it (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=50981.0) with jmone at the jriver forums (trying MC13 now), but it seems my setup is somehow screwed. Don't need to read that whole thread, basically, I get all the other effects of WASAPI exclusive, but no auto channel switch. Sample rate passthrough, everything works as it should except for number of channels. I've asked them for their registry key for their ATI drivers.

I got k-lite codec pack, but programs like foobar2000, MC13 and XMPlay which don't use directshow don't do it either with their WASAPI exclusive modes, so I don't think it's interfering. Further, Reclock outputs through WASAPI last, after all that decoding mumbo jumbo is done, right?

Any ideas? I'm thinking some obscure Vista setting, or a registry change.

[nlnl]

renethx's new summary for new Nvidia HDMI driver v1.00.0.41
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16024807&postcount=1243

Update on WASAPI excluded mode
Radeon HD 4xxx HDMI/R2.18

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16/32bit+44.1/48/96kHz PCM
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16/24bit+44.1/48/96kHz PCM (24bit only with Buffer Length < 900 ms)

DTS on wave is supported only when stereo speakers is selected.

GeForce 9400 HDMI/v1.00.0.41

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16bit+48/96kHz PCM
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16/24bit+48/96kHz PCM (24bit only with Buffer Length < 900 ms)

44.1kHz is not supported.

BTW I haven't tested 192kHz.

James
Could you tell why foobar2000 does support 24bit and ReClock does not?

[James]

renethx's new summary for new Nvidia HDMI driver v1.00.0.41
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16024807&postcount=1243

Update on WASAPI excluded mode
GeForce 9400 HDMI/v1.00.0.41

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16bit+48/96kHz PCM
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: 16/24bit+48/96kHz PCM

No support for 44.1kHz

James
Could you tell why foobar2000 does support 24bit and ReClock does not?
No idea. Maybe they are "cheating"? Try 32bit PCM in ReClock config.

[rica]

[B]James
Could you tell why foobar2000 does support 24bit and ReClock does not?

Check this post and the rest:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16011853#post16011853


_ _ _ _ __

[nlnl]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16024807&postcount=1243


Radeon HD 4xxx HDMI/R2.18

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: Up to 7.1 channel, 16/32 bit, 44.1/48/96 kHz PCM
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: Up to 7.1 channel, 16/24 bit, 44.1/48/96 kHz PCM (24 bit is supported only with Buffer Length < 900 ms)

DTS on wave is supported only when stereo speakers is selected (in both ReClock and foobar2000; check the thread ATI 45xx, Bit perfect, and Vista).

GeForce 9400 HDMI/v1.00.0.41

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: Up to 7.1 channel, 16 bit, 48/96 kHz PCM (32 bit is not support unlike HD 4xxx)
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: Up to 7.1 channel, 16/24 bit, 48/96 kHz PCM (24 bit is supported only with Buffer Length < 900 ms)

44.1kHz is not supported.

JAMES
Should we play with Buffer Length in Reclock config to get 24bit output for Nvidia HDMI audio (like foobar`trick)?

[James]

JAMES
Should we play with Buffer Length in Reclock config to get 24bit output for Nvidia HDMI audio (like foobar`trick)?

No, the size of the Wasapi buffer is now independent of ReClock's pre-buffer.
You can change it via the registry (DWORD WasapiBufferSize in ms), but I believe this won't help. Default is 50ms, you can try a bigger value. Check the logfile, if the buffer size really changed.

[Mark_A_W]

Could you tell why foobar2000 does support 24bit and ReClock does not?

I get the same result with my M-Audio card.


Actually, I get identical results to your ATi results.

[James]

I get the same result with my M-Audio card.


Actually, I get identical results to your ATi results.
Hmm... maybe I'm doing something wrong with 24bit?
OTOH... there isn't much I can do wrong when calling IAudioClient::Initialize

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd370875(VS.85).aspx

[mrcorbo]

Hmm... maybe I'm doing something wrong with 24bit?
OTOH... there isn't much I can do wrong when calling IAudioClient::Initialize

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd370875(VS.85).aspx

Your implementation is fine. Foobar's output plugin "cheats". (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=62653&view=findpost&p=572170)

I'm using Reclock in WASAPI mode exclusively now (no pun intended) and it is working flawlessly for everything. I had to set up a couple of rules+presets in ffdshow to handle some corner cases (mono audio plays back in Left channel only and <32k sample rate audio isn't supported by my audio device), but other than that it's handled everything I've throw at it.

[James]

Your implementation is fine. Foobar's output plugin "cheats". (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=62653&view=findpost&p=572170)


Ha! I knew it! Thanks for the confirmation.

[nlnl]

The last renethx`s Update on WASAPI excluded mode (ATI and Nvidia HDMI audio)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16032183&postcount=1258

192 kHz PCM is supported :agree:


Your implementation is fine. Foobar's output plugin "cheats". (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=62653&view=findpost&p=572170)

I'm using Reclock in WASAPI mode exclusively now (no pun intended) and it is working flawlessly for everything. I had to set up a couple of rules+presets in ffdshow to handle some corner cases (mono audio plays back in Left channel only and <32k sample rate audio isn't supported by my audio device), but other than that it's handled everything I've throw at it.

Foobar's output plugin "cheats" means 24-bit padded to 32-bit (the eight extra bits utilized in 32-bit are padded as zeros)?
So internaly Foobar outputs 32-bit stream?

JAMES
And why Reclock+WASAPI (Nvidia HDMI audio) does not support 32-bit stream and Foobar does (internally 24 padded to 32bit)?

GeForce 9400 HDMI/v1.00.0.41

- ReClock+WASAPI exclusive mode: Up to 7.1 channel, 16 bit, 48/96/192 kHz PCM (24/32 bit are not supported; 44.1 kHz is not supported [mute sound].)
- foobar2000+WASAPI exclusive mode: Up to 7.1 channel, 16/24 bit, 48/96 kHz PCM (24 bit is supported only with Buffer Length < 900 ms; 44.1/192 kHz is not supported.)

[Mark_A_W]

Your implementation is fine. Foobar's output plugin "cheats". (http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=62653&view=findpost&p=572170)

I'm using Reclock in WASAPI mode exclusively now (no pun intended) and it is working flawlessly for everything. I had to set up a couple of rules+presets in ffdshow to handle some corner cases (mono audio plays back in Left channel only and <32k sample rate audio isn't supported by my audio device), but other than that it's handled everything I've throw at it.


Yep, I've done similar in ffdshow audio.


And here's a fun question...

If foobar pads 24bit to 32bit for WASAPI....how come selecting 32 bit directly in foobar no workee? Eh? Eh?

[XxDeadlyxX]

Just wondering, with WASAPI mode, when you first start playing a mkv w/ flac in TMT, the Clocks correction numbers in Reclock properties sometimes go waay out and the audio pitch goes off (usually down, sounds funny) a few seconds in, then it stabilises a few seconds later.

Is this normal?

[mrcorbo]

Yep, I've done similar in ffdshow audio.


And here's a fun question...

If foobar pads 24bit to 32bit for WASAPI....how come selecting 32 bit directly in foobar no workee? Eh? Eh?

Padding 24bit int to 32bit int for the former and using 32bit float for the latter? Since foobar doesn't specify there's no way to know for sure. I know, though, that on my setup 32bit int works and 32 bit float doesn't so it's a plausible explanation.

Also note that according to the fb2k developer 24-bit is padded to 32bit "when possible". Obviously, when your soundcard doesn't support 32bit it won't be used.

[Mark_A_W]

Yes, it must be using 32 bit integer when you pick 24 bit, and 32 bit float when you pick 32 bit.

If this was the case then the results match Reclock.

[briandarroch]

Has anyone tested HDMI on non ATI/NVidia chipsets namely Intel G45?

If I leave bit depth at 16bit then I have no problems and the sample rate and number of speakers changes as it should. If I try 24 bit, 32bit or 32 bit float I get a hardware not supported.

I could accept that maybe the Intel hardware or drivers doesn't support it but I have tried foobar2000 with its WASAPI plugin and it plays back 24 bit depth but not 32 bit.

[James]

Has anyone tested HDMI on non ATI/NVidia chipsets namely Intel G45?

If I leave bit depth at 16bit then I have no problems and the sample rate and number of speakers changes as it should. If I try 24 bit, 32bit or 32 bit float I get a hardware not supported.

I could accept that maybe the Intel hardware or drivers doesn't support it but I have tried foobar2000 with its WASAPI plugin and it plays back 24 bit depth but not 32 bit.
Question is - does it really? Can you verify 24 bit output with your receiver/amp?

[briandarroch]

Question is - does it really? Can you verify 24 bit output with your receiver/amp?

I'm not sure if it really does. I know foobar works on 16 and 24 but not 32bit, although working on a selection and actually using it are two different things. My Onkyo receiver (TX-SR875) can tell me the sample rate but it doesn't tell me the bitdepth, so it could be that foobar is at fault. I do know that the receiver supports it. Any tricks trying to figure out if it really is working?

[anvandarnamn]

Has anyone tested HDMI on non ATI/NVidia chipsets namely Intel G45?

If I leave bit depth at 16bit then I have no problems and the sample rate and number of speakers changes as it should. If I try 24 bit, 32bit or 32 bit float I get a hardware not supported.

I could accept that maybe the Intel hardware or drivers doesn't support it but I have tried foobar2000 with its WASAPI plugin and it plays back 24 bit depth but not 32 bit.

i have also tried 24bit, 32bit with the intel g35/45chipset with no luck.
So im stuck with my ati card for now... i think its a intel driver limitation, not hardware. So i guess we should go to the guys at intel with this problem, I dont think James can help us here... ( even if he seems to be able to solve anything you throw at him :D)

[GrandeBoma]

Hello everybody... just signed in to report a minor issue with wasapi excl. mode

I have problems playing blu-ray movies from universal pictures (examples being casino, american gangster or the bourne trilogy) which have a particular type of menus that play a catchy metal chime when mouse or keyboard are browsing them. This chime seems to be incompatible with reclock under wasapi mode, as a matter of fact it is mute, which is no big deal. Unfortunately, failing to play the sound also results in player (pdvd or tmt) to freeze and crash whenever I select a menu button, and this is of course a big deal. I tried to run it without reclock or setting it to dsound or wave and this solves the issue, I get to play menu sounds and movie, but I still would like to have my cake and eat it too (playback AND wasapi).

Here is my configuration: Vista premium 32 bit (no service pack) pdvd 9/tmt 3 (no anydvd hd), nvidia 9600gt hooked to pioneer kuro via hdmi latest drivers, realtek 883 integrated sound latest drivers, reclock latest version

As a matter of fact it is very frustrating to think that if only I could get the movie to play without pressing a button on the menu this would solve the problem. Also disabling the menu exploration sounds is not an option as this requires menu buttons to work and before i get there, the player has frozen. :(

[andy o]

On your audio device properties, do you have checked "allow applications to take exclusive control of this device" and "give exclusive mode applications priority? Right click on the windows volume icon in the taskbar, "playback devices", double-click on your audio device, Advanced.

The menu buttons don't work because exclusive mode can only play one track, so no mixing the button sounds with the movie/menu audio can happen.

[GrandeBoma]

I have them both checked. Thanks for help, I now understand why it's not playing sound :clap:, but I don't know why it's freezing the player. TMT is actually less affected but I prefer pdvd because it has quadro speaker configuration which I need :bang:

[andy o]

Hmm I can't think of anything other than bugs though. I returned PowerDVD 9 and am stuck in PowerDVD 8.0.2217 because later versions had bugs and some were unstable and would crash, but it's weird that it only happens when using WASAPI exclusive for you. Does it happen with ALL the titles that have menu sounds, or just Universal titles like the ones you mentioned?

[joenobody]

I can also confirm the problem that GrandeBoma is reporting. With Reclock set to wasapi excl mode, blu-ray movies from Universal Studios (and only from Universal Studios) cause the player to freeze. In my case, I use pdvd 8 build 3017. I do not have access to tmt but with GrandeBoma reporting the same problem on tmt, it seems the issue is generic across different players.


My general configuration is as follows:

OS - Vista Ultimate 32 bit (no service pack)
Player - pdvd 8 build 3017
Graphics Chip - NVidia GeForce 9400 (integrated Gigabyte GA-E7AUM-DS2H motherboard chipset)
Hooked to Onkyo receiver via hdmi
HDMI Audio Driver - 1.00.0.42
Reclock version - 1.8.4.8

I have a second box that is hooked up via SPDIF but otherwise using the same configuration that also exhibits exactly the same freeze behavior on pdvd. On both boxes I have tried multiple remove/re-install attempts of the reclock and pdvd and they always result in the same problem.

Any insight or suggestions would be great.

[GrandeBoma]

It turned out that freezing of tmt was due to another problem. hence the issue is confined to cyberlink

[andy o]

joenobody do you have AnyDVD HD? If so, you might wanna try an earlier build of PowerDVD 8. Build 2217 (not 2217a) is the ideal one, after that it went downhill fast. If you don't have AnyDVD HD, you probably have to keep using the latest builds, which suck.

GrandeBoma, since contemporaneous builds of PowerDVD 8 and 9 (and I think 7.3 too) have similar problems, you might be stuck, since there was no PDVD9 when 8.0.2217 came out. You might wanna figure out if others with PowerDVD 9 are having this trouble. I know PowerDVD 9 didn't allow ReClock to run at first, but James discovered a method to trick it.

[GrandeBoma]

Then I guess the problem should now be shifted to powerdvd forum

[GrandeBoma]

I can just solve the problem by selecting direct3d as output... although I am not sure how that affects the audio quality

[joenobody]

hi andy_o,

yes i do have anydvd hd and i was running pdvd 8 build 2217. unfortunately about 2 weeks back, i mysteriously developed a problem in that configuration. pdvd suddently stopped recognizing any bluray ISOs mounted via virtual clonedrive.

sorry for being slightly off topic, but i have no idea why pdvd would suddenly stop recognizing/using the bluray ISOs mounted via virtual clonedrive. there were no updates to either pdvd or vcd or reclock when this problem developed. the only thing that changed was a recent update to anydvd hd.

the only way I found to get around that particular problem was to install build 3017. at first i was happy but recently found the same WASAPI/Universal Studios bluray problem as GrandeBoma.

anyways enough griping but i too am waiting for slyplayer to eventually come out and get around all these crazy hoops that we htpc owners have to jump through just to get high quality audio and video.

[James]

I can just solve the problem by selecting direct3d as output... although I am not sure how that affects the audio quality

It doesn't, and ReClock should use this as the default anyway.

[GrandeBoma]

It doesn't, and ReClock should use this as the default anyway.

Thanks, although I am puzzled as I thought that wasapi excl. mode was the best mode available for bd audio playback on pc...

[James]

Thanks, although I am puzzled as I thought that wasapi excl. mode was the best mode available for bd audio playback on pc...
You're right, I was talking about the hardware access method (Direct3D vs DirectDraw), and I was wrong, DirectDraw is the default access method.

[GrandeBoma]

You're right, I was talking about the hardware access method (Direct3D vs DirectDraw), and I was wrong, DirectDraw is the default access method.

Sorry if I ask you this, is there a way to switch from directx renderer to wasapi excl. mode on the fly? I could first launch the movie from menu and then switch to wasapi mode

Other wise, I have to find a way to bypass film menus, which is not easy as powerdvd 9 seems to play the warning messages even under anydvd hd :bang:

[andy o]

You're right, I was talking about the hardware access method (Direct3D vs DirectDraw), and I was wrong, DirectDraw is the default access method.

I think he means DirectSound, not Direct3D.

[GrandeBoma]

Could it depend on not having sp1 installed? I see that also joenobody has same vista configuration and wasapi seems to be an sp1 feature... but I can still select it and use it. I am ever so puzzled

[joenobody]

Hi GrandeBoma,

Sorry but I made a mistake... I do have Vista Ultimate SP1 installed.

[GrandeBoma]

And to make things even more interesting, kernel streaming in xp doesn't affect the same powerdvd version... intriguing indeed

[joenobody]

quick update. looks like completely uninstalling pdvd and then reinstalling pdvd but only applying update 2217 update seems to have fixed everything on both of my htpcs (hdmi and spdif).

strange thing is that this pretty much takes it back to the original configuration that i had when the original problem of pdvd not recognizing blu-ray isos started.

so near as i can tell this is what happened:

1. everything works, pdvd 2217, reclock 1.8.4.2, vcd 5.4.3.5, anydvd hd 6.5.8.2
2. installed anydvd hd 6.5.8.7 - for some reason this install causes pdvd 2217 to stop recognizing bluray isos
3. updated to pdvd 3017 - JOY!! (misplaced). bluray isos work again.
4. after a few days notice that reclock is not loading anymore
5. update to reclock 1.8.4.8 which will load in the presence of pdvd 3017
6. after a few days notice that pdvd is freezing on universal blurays when in WASAPI mode
7. uninstall and reinstall pdvd 2217 - JOY!! (hopefully not misplaced). everything appears to be working as it should, wasapi, bluray isos, no freezes

crossing fingers hoping i didn't miss anything. lessons learned seems to be to not change too many pieces of software at once.

after my bluray isos problem occurred after step 2) i probably should have reinstalled pdvd 2217 instead of "upgrading" to 3017. that would have probably saved me going down a rathole.

not sure if my experience will be relevant to you GrandeBoma but i figured i'd share in case it does help

[andy o]

Also, don't let PowerDVD access the internet. Block it with a good firewall. I use Comodo and disable the Windows Firewall completely. Also disable PowerDVD's useless startup entries. It can install up to four, one of which is a service.

[GrandeBoma]

I have been able to play the gladiator disc with anydvd hd blocking the first universal pictures intro (the one with the planet and the music), that allows me to hear the button sounds at the first menu. going to the movie menu, I found out that only pressing the "play" button freezes the program, if I select "choose scene" and then I play the first one, the movie starts without any problem in wasapi mode. Without anydvd hd it will instead freeze at the first menu. Unfortunately, this workaround does not seem to play casino blu-ray

[jasonwc]

I have an Asus P755D-E Pro 1156 socket motherboard with a VIA VT 1828S integrated audio chipset. At first I could only get WASAPI exclusive mode to work with 16 bit output but I found a workaround. If you set the audio format to "24 bit int padded to 32" both 16 bit and 24 bit sources are decoded at their native bitrate using WASAPI exclusive mode.

One of the great benefits of WASAPI exclusive mode is that the windows mixer is disabled you don't hear any Windows or application sounds. This is really handy for media applications, since I have been disturbed in the past by Windows noises and Skype, in particular. That's no longer an issue.