ReClock 1.8.7.7

[JackCarver]

Originally Posted by andy o

I'm a bigger jerk (23.97593).

wow that's a really good value! What kind of graphics adapter do u use? Nvidia or AMD? I use a Nvidia GTX 560 Ti.

What do u mean with that sacrificing audio for video? Is it that there is the possibility to get an asynchronous sound to the video or is it that there will be sound errors or sth?

I didn't realize anything of that in movie avatar but perhaps i didn't simply hear that or my loudspeakers (JBL) are too bad to make it audible

I will test this setup for further more movies.

[andy o]

Originally Posted by James

Well, just use the resampler and output multi channel PCM. It works amazingly well. And you won't sacrifice (almost) anything.

Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. I ran it with bitstreaming when there was no easy DTS-HD solution, and then I decided that instead of worrying about the odd soundtrack that would give me pops, I'd just take a video frame error once every several tens of minutes.

[andy o]

Originally Posted by JackCarver

wow that's a really good value! What kind of graphics adapter do u use? Nvidia or AMD? I use a Nvidia GTX 560 Ti.

What do u mean with that sacrificing audio for video? Is it that there is the possibility to get an asynchronous sound to the video or is it that there will be sound errors or sth?

I didn't realize anything of that in movie avatar but perhaps i didn't simply hear that or my loudspeakers (JBL) are too bad to make it audible

I will test this setup for further more movies.

If you don't notice anything, then do you really want me to tell you what to look for? (If you want you can read my previous post where I say exactly what happens.) In any case, the better way IMO is to decode everything, and let ReClock do its thing as it's intended.

I use an ATI 5770, and with other ATI cards 4670, 4550, 23.976 has been pretty accurate with me. Might depend on your AVR/TV too. I have a Pioneer KRP-500M.

[JackCarver]

I watched Star Trek 11 on Blu Ray (Dolby AC3 bitstream) and to sum it up I can say that i will further use bitstreaming. I don't realize any sound errors with my 5.1 system, the sound is clear and no delays or sth in soundtrack or speech or i can't hear them.
So IMO bitstreaming works with Reclock pretty good on some systems on other systems it doesn't.
I have a sandy bridge based system perhaps it's the reason that it works don't know but i would say if it works, Bitstreaming is the better choice cause sound output will be better as decoding is only be done by the AVR and there's no preencoding by the system (if i'm right)

[andy o]

Originally Posted by JackCarver

I have a sandy bridge based system perhaps it's the reason that it works don't know but i would say if it works, Bitstreaming is the better choice cause sound output will be better as decoding is only be done by the AVR and there's no preencoding by the system (if i'm right)

That's right only if you're using SPDIF audio (which can also be sent through the HDMI cable). But with lossless audio, which many (most?) blurays use today, instead of bitstreaming the backward-compatible DD track or DTS "core", you can decode the lossless audio instead, let ReClock "fix" it, and then let ReClock encode it to DD. You'll get similar audio quality that you're getting bitstreaming the "core", but at the same time you'll get media correction by ReClock.

BTW, Sandy Bridge is not the reason it's working. You're just not noticing the errors, which is fine, I didn't most of the time either.

[JackCarver]

Yes i'm using an optical SPDIF conection to my AVR and i use LAV Audio Decoder with MPC-HC. There u can choose between Bitstreaming Dolby Digital (AC 3), DTS, DTS-HD, Dolby Digital Plus and True HD.
I can choose the first two as my AVR (Harman Kardon AVR 130) can't decode DTS-HD. I think it's simply too old.
If i will get sound errors which i can hear then i'll go back to the PCM way and i think i have to choose there "use ac3 encoding" to get surround sound.

[Zardoz]

Do not worry, this shows that reclock is working fine on your system. You have to know that James is not very fond of the bitstreaming option and due to some careless remarks some people now think that it does not work or is in some sense inferior to resampling. The reality is different - both approaches have pros and cons. Bitstreaming if used correctly will work great. Here is my take on the pros of bitstreaming:

- no degrading of sound quality due to unnecessary decoding (and even reencoding if reclock is set to ac3-encoding)
- most if not all receivers have limited bass management/delay/postprocessing capabilities if fed raw pcm instead of the original bitstream (f.e. on my flagship denon model some of the options are still available but do not work anymore)
- channel mapping is an issue if some receivers do not decode the stream by themselves
- Older receivers with only spdif inputs do not allow for multichannel pcm input, but work happily with the DTS/AC-3 cores of the HD formats

on some of the myths of packet drop/repeats:
- if the monitor refresh rate is very close to a multiple of the movie-framerate you will rarely get any drop/repeats. In fact I get none for the duration of a whole movie (except for the obligatory counted one at the start of playback)
- while repeats are audible and bad, drops are not. DTS and AC3 were designed to be error resilient in the case of corrupted or dropped packets
- so when using a monitor refresh that favors drops over repeats you will probably not even notice the adjustment happening
- packets are usually very small (e.g. DTS = 11ms) so that audio video delay is not an issue; delay of your projector, aero, postprocessing and other factors have a much larger impact


I have been using bitstreaming in reclock for years now (since the ogo days) and am quite happy with it.

Originally Posted by JackCarver

Hi there,
it's strange but i think Reclock works for me in Bitstreaming mode or something else is going on.
Madvr stats show in movie Avatar following values when Reclock is on:

Display: 23.9716 Hz
Composition rate: 23.976
Clock deviation: -0.01865%
Movie: 23.976
1 frame drop every 13hrs

I watched the whole movie Avatar and Madvr stats says not 1 dropped frame over the movie
Sound was DTS Bitstream via LAV audio, the display of my Harman Kardon AVR showed 5.1 channel DTS and Video and sound was in sync over the whole movie.

When i disable Reclock then there are following values:

Display: same as above
Composition rate: same as above
Clock deviation: 0.00156%
Movie: same as above
1 frame drop every 3.40 minutes


So a very big difference in the frame drops. So does this mean that Reclock works or are there other reasons for this difference?

Thx

[Zardoz]

Originally Posted by andy o

Yeah, that's what I'm doing now. I ran it with bitstreaming when there was no easy DTS-HD solution, and then I decided that instead of worrying about the odd soundtrack that would give me pops, I'd just take a video frame error once every several tens of minutes.

This makes no sense, if you "take a video frame error once every several tens of minutes" why use reclock in the first place? With or without bitstreaming reclock sole purpose is to sync the video stream to the monitors refresh rate in order to avoid frame drops and repeats. If you can live with these you do not need reclock at all. I think you should be careful of spreading misinformation to JackCarver, about Reclock supposedly not working for him, when in fact it is.

[andy o]

Originally Posted by Zardoz

This makes no sense, if you "take a video frame error once every several tens of minutes" why use reclock in the first place?

It has other features, and not all formats are bitstreamable.

With or without bitstreaming reclock sole purpose is to sync the video stream to the monitors refresh rate in order to avoid frame drops and repeats. If you can live with these you do not need reclock at all. I think you should be careful of spreading misinformation to JackCarver, about Reclock supposedly not working for him, when in fact it is.

That's not true at all. See all the other checks and options in the ReClock settings panel? Those mean something, they're not just for show. One obvious example is getting WASAPI exclusive output with your DirectShow player of choice, most of which don't offer the option.

And if you must talk about a "sole" purpose, it would be to prevent both audio and video errors. Bitstreaming was added at the request of some people, when decoding wasn't all that viable.

[andy o]

Originally Posted by Zardoz

Do not worry, this shows that reclock is working fine on your system. You have to know that James is not very fond of the bitstreaming option and due to some careless remarks some people now think that it does not work or is in some sense inferior to resampling.

It is, measurably, and perceivably. In some cases less so than others, to the point of being irrelevant (that depends on the user), but that's the cold hard truth.

Here is my take on the pros of bitstreaming:

- no degrading of sound quality due to unnecessary decoding (and even reencoding if reclock is set to ac3-encoding)

True in some cases, if you're using SPDIF, (which Jack Carver was, I know), but not with HDMI. The sound quality hit (if any) would come from the AC-3 re-encoding itself, so I don't get the "due to unnecessary decoding" bit. Also, lossy encoding is more likely to produce artifacts if you're lossy re-encoding an already lossy stream. If you're lossy-encoding a lossless or uncompressed stream such as most blu-rays offer nowadays, it's probably imperceptible. Lossy encoding gets a very undeserved bad rap when actually, when done properly, it's usually transparent (codecs like mp3 can be brought down by so-called "killer samples", but they're not regular music/movie soundtracks, and the listener needs to know what to look for - no "golden ear" nonsense here).

- most if not all receivers have limited bass management/delay/postprocessing capabilities if fed raw pcm instead of the original bitstream (f.e. on my flagship denon model some of the options are still available but do not work anymore)

Is an oft-repeated claim for which I haven't found any evidence, or even reliable anecdotes. Every time I've asked the person making the claim, either they don't own the receiver they're talking about, or they don't respond back. You're the first one to say you own one, so: which processing options are not available to you, and which model do you have? And how do you arrive from your one receiver, to most? I have tested at home Harman Kardon (AVR254), Onkyo (606) and Pioneer (VSX-01). I think one can safely assume that other models of the same brands behave similarly.

The only thing I can think of is for legacy DTS, if you have a 7.1 system, my Pioneer won't let you apply DPLIIx, but instead will force DTS-Neo:6 if you wish to expand the surrounds. DTS-HD doesn't apply Neo:6, but automatically duplicates the 5.1 surrounds into the rear-backs, which is worse (this one may vary by receiver, but I suspect it's on DTS's specs). DPLIIx or Neo:6 can be applied to PCM streams, thus giving you more choice, not less.

The audio in the receiver is decoded to PCM, then the DSP applied. I think the confusion (not in your case, but in others) arises by the fact that multichannel analog in many cases can't be DSP'ed.

- channel mapping is an issue if some receivers do not decode the stream by themselves

How so? WASAPI exclusive solves this.

- Older receivers with only spdif inputs do not allow for multichannel pcm input, but work happily with the DTS/AC-3 cores of the HD formats

If you already have an HD format then you have an equivalent (to the "core") AC-3 stream from decoding the HD format and re-encoding with ReClock.

on some of the myths of packet drop/repeats:
- if the monitor refresh rate is very close to a multiple of the movie-framerate you will rarely get any drop/repeats. In fact I get none for the duration of a whole movie (except for the obligatory counted one at the start of playback)

Most people don't have the refresh rate close enough that you don't get any during a whole movie. Not even me, and I'm one of the luckier ones. Which card are you using, and did you not pause or skip at all during that test (I'm assuming also that you're using ReClock's counter)?

- while repeats are audible and bad, drops are not. DTS and AC3 were designed to be error resilient in the case of corrupted or dropped packets
- so when using a monitor refresh that favors drops over repeats you will probably not even notice the adjustment happening

"error resilient" doesn't mean "error free". But I agree (and said above) that they are probably unnoticeable most of the time.