23rd August 2010, 18:49
PrincipalityFusion: When you say "create a normal blu-ray structure" on my hard drive, do you mean the structure I get when I use AnyDVD to rip the blu-ray disc to my hard drive? If so, the result is a series of m2ts files (containers). My blu-ray player can see and play the main movie (largest file) but the language is in Spanish or French or there the voice of a narrator describing what you are seeing.
23rd August 2010, 19:19
No, that's not what he means. He means can the player see the full structure so it can play the menu's etc. When you rip using AnyDVD HD you should get a set of folders with various files in them, you don't just end up with m2ts files.
If you can only see the m2ts files then it's no surprise that it plays the wrong audio track
25th August 2010, 10:37
An m2ts file (container) simply contains a number of tracks of video, audio, subtitles. Navigation to the desired track is handled by the player via other information contained in the Bluray structure: if you simply try to play an m2ts file standalone, you will only get the first video, audio and subtitle track, which may not be the primary English soundtrack or correct subtitle.
Originally Posted by Tedd
In many respects an m2ts is equivalent to a DVD vob file: track navigation during playback is provided by a separate ifo file.
It sounds as though your Bluray player can play back m2ts files, but does not recognise the track navigation information from the Bluray structure.
One way around the issue is to use ClownBD or similar software to remux only the desired video, soundtrack and subtitle into a single m2ts that consequently does not require any track navigation. The downside is that you can only create a movie-only file without multiple soundtracks (unless the Bluray player can be forced to manually switch tracks on the fly). ClownBD will combine any fragmented m2ts files from the playlist into a single contiguous m2ts (authors often like to split a movie into multiple m2ts files, so it is useful to have software that can combine them back into one automatically).
Mkv support on Bluray players can be a bit flaky, so I am not surprised that you are having trouble getting it to work. However, if your player supports m2ts file playback, I would concentrate on that.
ClownBD is quite easy to use and will fairly quickly convert a Bluray movie into a (hopefully) playable standalone m2ts file.
It should be okay to include additional audio and subtitle tracks in the m2ts, in case the Bluray player can manually switch between them, but the primary desired tracks should always be the first, in any category, to ensure the player defaults to them and you remove any unwanted foreign language tracks or subtitles.
I'm not sure whether chapter navigation will work with a standalone m2ts file, but that is something you can try out.
Last edited by YaniD; 25th August 2010 at 10:40.
25th August 2010, 11:42
Most likely navigation (chapter, language, etc) won't work with m2ts files because the logic to handle that is contained in the bluray structure (specifically the .obj and index files i think), not the m2ts files.
Even if he were to put the desired track first, it still might not work if the player doesn't know it can decode that track. It will just skip the track and decode the first one it knows it can, which is usually one of the foreign language tracks.
This is why the full bluray structure is so crucial. If you are going to play back m2ts files, you MUST wrap them in the bluray structure unless you are going to strip out all unwanted streams and don't care about chapter navigation. Even then, unless you convert the high definition audio, your player may not know if it can decode the track so you'll get no sound or you'll get the core sound only.
What i think might be happening in his case is that if he followed the advice to create a full bluray structure, his player is making him drill down to the first playable file, which would be m2ts instead of him just picking the bluray main folder and the player parsing the bluray structure from there, which it may not be able to do. So even though he is creating the bluray structure, he's still ending up playing the single m2ts files.
That would really suck if that's the case as it means that his player can't really play back blurays from folder structure. He's pretty much stuck with m2ts for VC-1 since he doesn't want to convert VC-1 to h264. In that case, strip out all but the desired audio and video tracks (hopefully, you don't need subtitles otherwise you'll need to burn them into the video). Use ClownBD so you create one big m2ts file (instead of multiple). You'll get basic playback, but unless the player has built in forward, reverse, skip, etc, you won't have those things. Not ideal, but not the end of the world.
Alternatively, upgrade to an HTPC. With micro motherboards, ultra cheap ati HD video cards, and cheap ram, you should be able to build a very decent HTPC for about $350 to $400 including OS.
25th August 2010, 18:52
Thank you both. I'll give ClownBD a try.
26th August 2010, 10:03
Yeah, I think it will be a work in progress for the OP to test the capabilities of the player with m2ts files and Bluray structure.
It is also possible to create a basic Bluray structure around the single stripped-down m2ts using ClownBD (ie choose Bluray output instead of m2ts). This has the advantage of still being a standalone m2ts if necessary, but also having the Bluray structure with chapter and track navigation if the player somehow supports it. Because there is no advanced Java to deal with, player compatibility might be improved.
Bluray players are really a box of chocolates when it comes to playing anything other than Bluray structure on Bluray media: you never know what you will get. It seems to be in the interest of the studios to ensure that playback of anything other than official Bluray is as much a nuisance as possible for the end user.
26th August 2010, 19:27
Adbear: I'm a bit confused regarding the question "can the blu-ray player see the full structure?" From my blu-ray player I can see the folders ripped to my hard drive using AnyDVD but I still have to navigate to a single file and select it.
YaniD: [QUOTE=YaniD;276690] It sounds as though your Bluray player can play back m2ts files, but does not recognise the track navigation information from the Bluray structure.
I've just been concentrating on the main m2ts movie file for the blu-ray player. I'll try selecting all the files for inclusion into an m2ts or mkv wrapper using clownBD.
Those movies that my blu-ray player won't recognize have video stream codec VC-1 or an extension of .mp4 and codec MPEG-4 (Base Media / Version 2). An extension .mkv, mkv wrapper, and code Video MPEG-4 AVC, audio DTS 5.1 works.
PrincipalityFusion: "This is why the bluray structure is so crucial. If you are going to play back m2ts files, you must wrap them in the bluray structure unless you are going to strip out all unwanted streams and don't care about chapter navigation". By "wrap them in the bluray structure" do you mean combine all the video and audio files into one file using ClownBD? For example, all the files in the BDMV/STREAM folder that I get when I rip a bluray disc to my hard drive using AnyDVD? There are 8 subfolders in the BDMV folder. I assumed you were refering to the m2ts files in the STREAM subfolder.
I'll experiment with ClownBD and let you guys know how I make out. Lastly, what does "HTPC" stand for? Thanks again for all your help.
27th August 2010, 03:36
I should have explained myself better: when I mention track navigation, I'm referring to m2ts files containing multiple soundtracks, subtitles, etc; the player has to navigate to the proper (audio) track in the m2ts file in order to play the one you want. I did not mean navigating to different features or m2ts files in the title.
The Bluray structure tells the player how to navigate to each playback element (eg main feature, deleted scenes, making of, etc), each of which which may be comprised of a number of m2ts files. It also tells the player how to access the desired track: soundtrack, subtitle, etc within each m2ts file.
Without the bluray structure, the player has no way of knowing what is inside an m2ts file, or which track within the m2ts to play, which is why playing a standalone m2ts may give you undesired results.
I don't think it is possible to include more than the main feature in an m2ts file, because the formats of the other elements such as deleted scenes will probably be different. A player of a composite m2ts would not know what to play and would likely get confused. I don't think even the disc authors try to combine different formats into a single m2ts.
It is my understanding that you have to create a separate m2ts file for each unique element you wish to play. That means separate passes of ClownBD for each element.
ClownBD can create a simple Bluray structure, instead of a standalone m2ts file (the m2ts file is included in the structure), if your player can handle structure playback or if you want to create a BD-R disc.
MKV, if supported, is actually a better container, since chapter marks are usually supported. However, just like Bluray structure files on a HDD, players don't necessarily support it.
I think Adbear may have been asking whether your Bluray player will play a Bluray structure with full menu navigation from a HDD or via streaming: most players will not as it is assumed that Bluray structure files not on a Bluray media disc are likely copied.
All the files and folders in BDAV/Certificate constitute the Bluray structure. The m2ts files in STREAM are similar to the vob files in DVD structure and contain the muxed audio/video/subtitles. The mpls files are the playlists that determine which m2ts files are associated with which playback element (main feature, deleted scenes, making of, etc) and are similar in function to the ifo files of DVD. If a player can't play a Bluray structure from a HDD, then you lose all the navigation and are at the mercy of playing the m2ts files only, with the unknown track allocations within.
HTPC = Home Theatre PC and just refers to a PC optimised to play multimedia in a home theatre environment.
I suggest you try ClownBD and start with an m2ts of a title containing only a single video/audio/subtitle and see how your player handles it. Then create a Bluray structure and see if the player handles it any differently. Further things to try are to include multiple soundtracks (eg a directors commentary) and see whether you can access them independently with your player from an m2ts.
The best solution is to burn Bluray structure to BD-R media and then there are usually few issues when playing back on a player. All the problems stem from the studios wanting to prevent consumers copying titles easily to HDD and being able to play those copies readily on players.
Last edited by YaniD; 27th August 2010 at 03:38.
27th August 2010, 06:54
Thank you for the explanation. It helped give me a better understanding.
I tried ClownBD right after posting my last message. I selected all the m2ts files in the STREAM directory. While ClownBD was processing the m2ts files, a message box floated back and forth over a black screen that read "Could not find any compatible Direct3D devices". I suspected that something had gone amiss. Sure enough when ClownBD was done, I the folder I created for the output was empty. Any idea what the error message was trying to tell me?
I'll try again tonight and follow the suggestions of your previous message.
To use ClownBD to create a Blu-ray structure, I should select all the m2ts files in the BDAV folder, its subfolders, and the Certificate folder and its subfolders? Will ClownBD let select a folder or do I have to open each folder and select all of the individual files? Thanks.
28th August 2010, 02:52
I think you misunderstand how ClownBD works: you don't need to select m2ts files as ClownBD can access the playlists and work out which files are associated with each particular playback element in a Bluray title; you just need to select which single playback element (main movie, deleted scenes, making of, etc) you want made into an m2ts (or Bluray structure); you can't realistically select more than one due to differences in format.
When you start ClownBD, there is a field at the top called "Movie Location": key in the location of the source Bluray structure you are working on. If you then select the BD/HD-DVD option, ClownBD will search through the whole title and present all the available playlists with their durations and contents. ClownBD works out which m2ts files are required (and it shows you what they are): you just have to select which playback element you want to be processed.
The only downside is that it can't name each playlist, so you have to manually determine which one you want from the list. This is not difficult if you want the movie only as it is usually the longest duration element. I find that viewing the desired elements via a player first and noting down the durations, helps in selecting the right playlist later in ClownBD, especially if there are Theatrical and Directors cuts.
Once you know the playlist you want, select it on the list. ClownBD will then present another page allowing you to select or deselect the video, soundtracks and subtitles you want to keep in the final output m2ts (or Bluray structure) for that playback element. You can also choose to keep the soundtrack as-is, keep only the core, or re-encode it to another audio format. The final output can be provided as m2ts, Bluray structure as files, or Bluray structure as ISO (image) amongst others.
There should be guides on how to use ClownBD in more detail elsewhere, but the above should get you started.
I would recommend using the BD/HD-DVD option, simply because it makes the process so much easier. Forget about the folders, subfolders, files and certificates: ClownBD handles it all for you.
ClownBD first demuxes the elementary streams to a folder of your choice. If you select TSmuxer option, it will then mux those elementary streams into an m2ts file in the folder of your choice (and create a simple Bluray structure as an option). If you select the Imgburn option, it will then create an ISO (image) of the Bluray structure. Because there is a lot of data transfer, it's best to choose folders on different physical drives.
Last edited by YaniD; 28th August 2010 at 03:00.
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