BD+ discussion on Norwegian version of The Day The Earth Stood Still

Discussion in 'AnyDVD HD (Blu-ray)' started by SuperGoof, May 14, 2009.

  1. SuperGoof

    SuperGoof Well-Known Member

    This is funny indeed. :) Though I hardly believe that no Blu-ray device (such as PS3, standalone player, etc.) can play it at all. Or those devices (which can play it) use different set of keys /codes to decrypt the disc which you don't have access to?
     
  2. Peer

    Peer SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    Yes, that sort of is the thing.
    PS3 plays it.
     
  3. BurnerHEAD

    BurnerHEAD Well-Known Member

    I don't mean to pry, but the studios finally found a protection that works. :D

    Are you sure it's a bug in the BD+ code?
    It might be a feature.
     
  4. Hawk

    Hawk Well-Known Member

    But then at least it should play on software player such as TMT and powerdvd.

    @ Peer, other than PS3 it doesn't play on other players. Is that correct. Kind of strange I guess we won't need bad sector based portection after all.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  5. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    A reminder that the BD+ thread is not for discussion...unless you are Peer, James, or Fernando. They can do or say whatever they want. :) I've split this conversation out into its own thread.
     
  6. Peer

    Peer SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    ...

    Yes, you're right, I should also route my own comments to the logs there out of the thread, unless they really apply to the logs.

    Of course it's a bug - the same disc is available in every other area of the world with no problem at all, would be quite strange to deliberately mess up a disc for such a small region only and then in a way that makes the players look buggy instead of making them at least display a useful message.

    Note that the manufacturers of the players are paying customers of Macrovision, too.
     
  7. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    It's not an issue if there's a legitimate reason for dialog in that thread. It's just that the more conversations we have in there, the harder it will be to find the relevant logs you guys are looking for.

    Yea, it's a bug. The PS3 is probably THE test bed for every disc in the world, so, it's going to handle just about anything you throw at it. However, the software players are legit players, too, and if a disc doesn't work with them they either need to be updated or the MFG screwed the pooch. Like that's never happened before. :rolleyes: :)
     
  8. tteich

    tteich Active Member

    Peer, if I remember correctly BD+ supports different sets of program logic per player. So they can implement a totally different bytecode (or even native code) for the PS3 which would explain why the PS3 doesn't run into the endless loop?
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  9. Fernando

    Fernando SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    No, it doesn't. They screwed up. Didn't test it.

    And I personally think this will be the future of Blu-ray. Having discs that don't work, then work and others, older ones then won't work. But did work. And you will download and download and download new firmware patches until, finally, Macrovision/Fox realizes that they lost control. And then will blame the next scapegoat to find.

    Actually, BD+ was a great idea. Promising. But Macrovision bought that idea and screwed up. That has nothing to do with SlySoft, nothing to do with any other attempt to break BD+.
     
  10. MikeA

    MikeA Well-Known Member

    Does this disc play properly in a standalone player? If it does, this is pretty scary, since the studios may have accidently stumbled upon a method of protection (buggy BD+ code) that can't be played back on a PC based player at all. I hope this isn't the case.

     
  11. Peer

    Peer SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    No, that's incorrect.
    It is by design, that BD+ (or even AACS) can make a specific player not play a disc. There's nothing to "stumble upon", both AACS and BD+ were designed to have that ability.
    So if Fox or any other studio decides to make discs not work with software players they will just do it. But for one that certainly has legal implications, pisses off a big blu-ray fan community (I'd guess that half of all the HD lovers are using HTPCs) and it also would force us all the more to unprotect such discs in order to make them play 8)

    Thinking about it - it would surely be nice press for us, as it would even more legitimate what we are doing...
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
  12. Peer

    Peer SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    Yes, that's the reason. The PS3, just as all so far "uncompromised" players, run a more simple BD+ code, while the compromised ones run some extra funny stuff. And that's probably where they messed up.
    But I'm not going to investigate that further, that's up to Macrovision :)
     
  13. Urge

    Urge New Member

    I'm not an expert, but wouldn't it then be possible for you to implement such simple BD+ code for the implicated discs, or to do some of that magic of yours, whichever works best? ;)
     
  14. Peer

    Peer SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    No, sorry. It doesn't work that way.
     
  15. MikeK61

    MikeK61 Well-Known Member

    You may forgive me this question.
    What i dont understand is why has the same movie different BD+ protections just on different regions or even countries.
    It makes no logical sense to me.
    For example if region a version of movie x cant be copied i just buy it in the UK wich is region b and can be copied.

    Makes absoloutly no sense to me.
     
  16. James

    James SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    DRM never makes sense. ;)
     
  17. Mediafox

    Mediafox Member

    Blu-Ray Region Coding

    Hello, SuperGoof,

    I would like to know more about Blu-ray Region coding.

    *

    In another thread I asked:

    A question: Where exactly on a BD is the Region code stored and how is it structured? As far as I know it is somewhere in the "MovieObject.bdmv" file, but there is also Region-coding with BD-Java navigation.So how can you add a Region code to a BD yourself, how is it checked, and how can you manually modify/remove it (by modifying files)? Could anyone explain this more detailed, please?

    Peer answered: The answer is: the region code is not stored anywhere at all. Not. Nowhere.The player has a region code - the "software" on the disc (either HDMV, which partly is to be found in the MovieObjects.bdmv and/or BD-J) can check the player's region code and act accordingly.
    BUT: if that code asks for the region, it doesn't even necessarily mean that it's to block out a region. The disc may also simply want to display different info-stills depending on the region on an otherwise region-free disc.

    *

    But how does your Blu-Ray Region Code Remover program work? What does it modify, and in what files? How can you region-code a BD yourself? How exactly does BD-region checking work in software players?

    Thank you in advance and many greetings, :)

    Mediafox
     
  18. Peer

    Peer SlySoft Development Team Staff Member

    If you want to know how a region code is "removed", compare the files before and after AnyDVD HD ran over them ;)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2009
  19. cantarell

    cantarell New Member

    Well, consider SlySofts business model. They sell a product that claims to rip BD+ discs, that is what it does. Thus, if a customer buys a BluRay disc and AnyDVD doesn't rip it, that's now SlySofts problem. They have to get logs, extend their BD+ VM so it can answer the discs questions correctly, then issue an update. Even if only 5% of their userbase buys such a disc, they still have to support it.

    All this annoys the customer and takes time, which for a commercial outfit like SlySoft means money. How much money does AnyDVD make? How much do Peer and James get paid? I don't know, but I bet with their skills they could get paid a LOT more elsewhere. If AnyDVDs sales are hurt by the requirement to subscribe for a year, or by a new BD+ that takes 3 months to crack again, then it makes breaking BluRay a more marginal business, ie, one less likely to be full of competitors, and means the brains behind it will be tempted to (eg) go work for Google instead of SlySoft.

    What appears to be happening now is that every BD+ disc is protected with a generic sort of program that can be rapidly "individualized", probably by hashing randomly chosen (at mastering time) areas of player memory. Thus every disc has to be "broken" individually, although in reality this "breaking" is almost certainly automated on SlySofts end.

    It doesn't really slow SlySoft down much, as once the initial work is done it's easy to break such randomized protections, but it DOES:

    a) Mean you might get a few days of protection when a new disc is released, basically for "free" (minus the bd+ licensing costs), until SlySoft get logs and release a new version

    b) Ensure competing rippers are unlikely to be built because maintaining them requires constant effort for every disc as well as a large upfront investment to just get that far. Note that the doom9 crowd have been stopped in their tracks by BD+

    Why bother with such a scheme at all though? If there's even one company in the world like SlySoft that makes enough money off sales to pay a few talented engineers, it would appear that the scheme is broken. But it seems unlikely that this is the end of BD+. It wouldn't be surprising if we see new versions again which are harder to break than just "send me the logs, here you go" - but they'd probably be applied only to a few, valuable titles rather than every disc.

    Bear in mind that the point of BD+ is studios can decide how much they want to spend on protection, on the assumption that player developers have all the wrong incentives (they actually benefit from weak security!). Want 2 months of security? No problem sir, but you'll have to pay for the work. Want 2 days? Here's a randomized version of our already broken generic program, yours for only 10c/disk.

    Whether it's worth it or not depends on the expected sales curves vs dropoff when pirate copies become available. Thus how often we see stronger programs depends on a lot of variables we don't know, like how much it costs to develop and test a BD+ program, how quickly sales spike and drop off for a given sort of movie, etc.

    Some people have been wondering why SlySoft can't just run the "simple" code instead of the funny, complicated and less well tested code. Every BluRay player has a set of device keys, which are (supposed to be) well hidden. Of course in the case of many players they really aren't because piracy isn't the player manufacturers problem. Actually piracy benefits them due to higher demand for players!

    So anyway there is cryptography involved. The details don't really matter, but different parts of a BD+ program can be encrypted under different keys, which are functions of the player environment. Literally the program decrypts itself using keys derived from answers the player gives it. One question is, "who are you?". If the player answers "I am FooDVD" then that answer will unlock one part of the BD+ program, and if the answer is something else it'll unlock a different part of the BD+ program. So in order to run the "simple" code, AnyDVD would need to answer "I am BarDVD, a fresh uncompromised player". But apparently, compromising a new player is quite a bit of work, especially as the BD+ program can then go on to verify the player is who it says it is (that's really the bulk of BD+, verifying that the player didn't lie to the first question).
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
  20. BurnerHEAD

    BurnerHEAD Well-Known Member

    Indeed. Imagine the headlines:
    "Slysoft makes fubarred disc playable"