Blocked BD copy playback (Cinavia)

Discussion in 'High Definition Software' started by skypx, Jul 13, 2010.

  1. abalamahalamatandra

    abalamahalamatandra Well-Known Member

    But if BD+ hadn't been cracked by now every Blu-Ray may include it. I don't think publishers will pay for any protection just because it looks good, but something that actually works might be very attractive to them. So if nobody found a way around Cinavia in lets say a year other publisher might use it.
  2. Feynor

    Feynor Well-Known Member

    Old hardware and older player models will probably never be able to detect Cinavia. Sadly old players tend to break, eventually.

    3D will drive the spread of Cinavia players, as all of those players are likely to have it implemented.
  3. Achernar

    Achernar Well-Known Member

    Maybe I'm missing something here, but are there any titles released on BRs without any kind of encryption? And taking into account that AACS and BD+ are now only "formal" protections and obstacles, easily bypassed, why are they still used by the studios?
    The Cinavia is by far the most serious threat to the fair-use, the most effective copy protection for the "hw-folks" (thus far) and will be harder to circumvent than AACS and BD+ combined together.

    I wouldn't call it guesswork and scaremongering, but best guess predictions and deep concern about the future of my backups and our fair-use rights.
  4. DrinkLyeAndDie

    DrinkLyeAndDie Moderator (en)

    Not legally, no. AACS is mandatory on Blu-Ray. Whether or not it can be gotten around it is required for a retail Blu-Ray disc to contain AACS and the AACS LA makes money off it. It's extortion in my book.

    Let's remember that the process of handling AACS and BD+ was a progession. BD+ is definitely the more difficult and intricate of the two from my perspective but I'm also no expert. My point, however, is that BD+ seemed monumentally difficult to handle when it was first discussed and yet here we are with multiple software programs on the market that can handle BD+ removal. It's also pretty obvious that BD+ was created with the intent to be modified over time. What I mean is that they are making the implementation more complex. BD+ is handled but I still consider it something that will be forever changing and evolving.

    Cinavia is the new "Big Bad Wolf". Right now, yes, Cinavia is the most serious threat but I don't consider BD+ to be written off or that someone else won't come along. Everything that has gone on thus far seems to be a cat and mouse game with a slow progression of protections introduced and made more complex. There's the BDA, AACS LA, Cryptography Research who invented BD+, Rovi (formerly Macrovision) who purchased BD+ from Cryptography Research, and now Cinavia from Verance.

    Being concerned about the draconian and ever increasing heavy-handed tactics being used to prevent piracy isn't scaremongering at all. The simple fact is that protections are more harmful to legitimate customers be it for games or movies. Pirates always find a way around things but we, the legitimate consumers, get stuck with the hobbled final product and we actually shelled out cold hard cash for it!
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  5. Adbear

    Adbear Well-Known Member

    How is 'guess predictions' any different then guesswork? This is exactly the same kind of thing we went through when BD+ was first released with all the naysayers and doom & gloom merchants coming out of the wood work, then hey presto Slysoft cracked it. It may take them a while, but if they put their minds to it I have no doubt they will do it again with Cinavia.
  6. Achernar

    Achernar Well-Known Member

    Thanks DrinkLyeAndDie for the constructive reply. It was pleasure reading it. :rock:

    I would just like to check: BD+ and recently Cinavia are also part of the AACS LA agreement, but not mandatory?
    And sure it's extortion and blackmailing. But only people like us can make a difference by stop buying new titles and games... at least for some time, until the message is passed across.

    I like the the word "progression". Reversing BD+, a simple VM in its nature, is like trying to reverse sophisticated mechanical system consisting of springs, gears, axles, levers, etc. (a high-quality lock, for example). It takes incremental steps, progressing over time and ultimately leading to the insight of how it operates. It's a simplification, as there is more to BD+ than only its VM.
    The Cinavia watermark, on the other hand, is somewhat different. At present, there is nothing to start with and it seems reasonable to assume that AACS LA may hesitate to license Cinavia software player as that would start the countdown of reversing the watermark. Moreover, there's DTS-HD MA decoding pre-step (not needed if Cinavia is only in the DTS core), then the watermark removal, followed by encoding to DTS-HD MA format. Three difficult operations in chain, assuming that watermarking algorithm is known.
    Removing BD+ gives copies that are 1:1 when it comes to reproduction, while removing Cinavia could introduce unwanted audio artifacts, or may even be impossible as DTS-HD MA encoder specs are secret. Not to mention the time needed to remove it, because the whole audio track would have to be sweeped and cleaned...

    Avatar seems like a nice example that BD+ cannot be "written off" yet, but in past it took a couple of months on average to reverse a specific incarnation of BD+. Therefore it's not unrealistic to expect it would take similar amount of time for mastering the next "evolved" implementation of BD+. And again, there is the word "progression".
    But attacking Cinavia at this moment is a steep wall, and would be virtually equivalent to attacking a one-time pad...

    I just wonder why all those copy protections and restrictions tyrannizing legal customers doesn't bounce back into their heads? Whether movies or games, it's almost the same people behind it. Waiting 40 secs for the purchased game to start up, while the drive is madly spinning (and wearing) - in contrast to illegaly downloaded cracked version that starts without a hassle... punishing the ones giving them money is not polite nor wise.
  7. Achernar

    Achernar Well-Known Member

    I admit that "guess predictions" is not much different in meaning than "guesswork"; it was a poor choice of words. I would now write "best possible educated guess, given the circumstances". The word guesswork is closely related to speculation. And nobody likes speculation, as it is always 99% of sensational, spectacular and fictitious "facts", full of wild imagination of the people with very little (or no whatsoever) knowledge of the topic at hand. And that inevitably leads to scaremongering...

    As for the BD+, I'm aware of the announcements, like (Richard Doherty):
    But some background in watermarking 3D CAD/CAM models represented as "triangulated" set of points gives me more realistic picture and view on the Cinavia watermark and its removal. The domain is quite different, but the mode of operation and procedure itself is essentially the same.
    Because of that, I'm quite sceptical about Cinavia being defeated any time soon regardless of how many geniuses are working on it. At least until the Cinavia enabled software player is released. Note that CyberLink released a single version of PDVD with the support for Verance's DVD-A watermark, which soon disappeared.

    And when/if the way is found to remove Cinavia, it will be in a completely new application - CloneBD. Yet another tool which I'll (again) have to pay for, just in order to make a safety copies of my legally obtained BD collection. Well, that's off-topic, but very frustrating. :bang:
  8. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Or, once again, get a player that won't ever support Cinavia and be happy. Let's not turn Cinavia into something it's not. At the moment, we have one disc that contains it. We have a handful of players that are confirmed to detect it. *SPECULATION* suggests that more players will support it, and more discs will have it, but, this isn't fact simply by virtue of not having happened yet. It's reasonable speculation, to be sure, which is why we've discussed it quite a bit in this thread. But, it's still nothing more than one disc, and a handful of players. It's not the end of the world. Your current backups you have? Those will play just fine on existing and future equipment. I for one am not concerned about Cinavia in the least as I have no intention of writing discs or streaming to players that detect it. If you're TRULY concerned about it, it's time to review the options we've discussed previously. Please understand, for the slow kids in the class, I'm not making recommendations here. Nor have I at all. I'm simply laying out what the options are. It's up to each of you to decide how to proceed.

    1) Build a sweet HTPC, get a software player, rock AnyDVD on your box, and call it a day.
    2) Get a player that is known to NOT support Cinavia and hope that firmware updates in the future don't add Cinavia detection. Choose your firmware updates carefully. :D
    3) Get a streaming device that, again, currently doesn't support Cinavia. Rip to MKV or some other format that works with said streaming device, and be wary of all future updates.
    4) Refuse to purchase known Cinavia titles. Choose to rent them only.

    There are probably a few more options that I've missed, but, generally, if you're truly concerned about this Cinavia nonsense, this is a good outline of how to fight back. Bottom line is, if your player doesn't detect it, then it's a non-issue. If your disc doesn't contain it, it's a non-issue. Hopefully SlySoft in the future can move discs that do contain it into the does not contain it category. But waiting for that to happen is not your only weapon.
  9. jeremy duncan

    jeremy duncan Well-Known Member

    If they make this "Cinavia" available to current software players then it will be broken? How? look in the method it's read and where a part that holds integrity and can break protection if it's broken: copy that part, clone that part.
    In current form blu rays are cracked from copying the behavior of the memory, so that the hdcp thinks anydvd is that part of the memory and doesn't realise anydvd is only a Clone of that part of the HDCP system.

    But if the Cinavia made tha HDCP HW read the audio then there is nothing inbetween the audio and hw to clone, no sw part needed just hw needed, the hw sees a error that breaks Cinavia and sends a flag to the part downstream of the HW checker and the error message pops up.

    Since the media moguls are simple they won't know that once Cinavia is released to Powerdvd then Anydvd can immitate the part Cinavia depends on. :rock: Just wait, Cinavia will be broken the day it's released for Powerdvd/TMTP :agree:
  10. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. :disagree:
  11. achilles78

    achilles78 Beta Tester

    Would it be possible to overcome this protection by fooling Cinavia protected players into believing a backup copy is AACS protected?

    What I mean is, if a disc is ripped using AnyDVD then the copy protection is completely removed. From what i understand, Cinavia is triggered when no AACS is detected. However if the Cinavia believes the disc is copy protected then it will not be triggered.

    Just a thought...
  12. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    If only you were the first one to post such a thought. sigh. No, it's not possible. You can't "fake AACS" and you can't randomly "reencrypt the backup with AACS" or any other such nonsense. It simply isn't possible at all.
  13. jeremy duncan

    jeremy duncan Well-Known Member

    I will repeat what I said in a more coherant manner, I was trying l33t speak but my age showed I didn't know how. :cool:

    Here is a quote I found in the anydvd forum:

    "They were relying on AACS being strong enough to withstand attempts at breaking it, they were wrong. IIRC a little flaw in a software player allowed the keys to be read from memory, and pandoras box was open."


    "I don't think getting the watermark out would be feasible. I think the best bet right now is figuring out how the hell the player is detecting the watermark when bitstreaming. If it's doung a double duty of decoding + bitstreaming, that's freaking annoying and if implemented in software players would mean even more extra bloat (not that in hardware players is not bloat either). "


    "There's a disc ID that can't be copied onto a backup that is used as part of the AACS decryption process. The only reason "protected backups" work is because AnyDVD has the title key for that particular disc. The disc *ALWAYS* gets decrypted and if applicable BD+ protection removed before the player gets it when dealing with backups. I think people get confused with the idea of a "protected backup" somehow magically working with all the protection in place. It simply means that AnyDVD is working its magic on the image in realtime instead of when you ripped it. To the player, a protected image is no different than a ripped, unprotected image. "


    So this tells me that anydvd acts in realtime by - getting the key + using the key = anydvd acts as key holder in the aacs method.

    AnydvdHD then is a form of mimicking, or cloning to impersonate a device to another device through the use of unauthorized id theft.
    it stands to reason then, that since the aacs doesn't know that the hdcp id is stolen they will go through the software again in the microsoft operating system.

    The cinavia protection is based on the use of a key that is read, and this key adds bloat, so the key will be put through memory that can be read by anydvd.
    I think the key is not a single string but a mathermatical model based on folding the audio so the key matches when the fold is correctly in place, thats why it takes 20 minutes for the protection message, it'folding to the preset fold the cinavia is looking for.
    This fold though is bloat and so it's put through the memory and even though its folded it still can be read if the design of the fold is met. Then the audio can be immitated and cinavia given a false fold key.

    The thing is the error of id theft is through sw players using memory that can be robbed of their id. this error is where the fold can be found.
  14. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Your conclusions are incorrect based on what you linked to. AnyDVD is not getting the key in realtime by cloning some player. It has a database of title keys for each and every Blu-ray out there. When they encounter a disc that isn't in the key database, it tries to recover it from the server. If the key has already been found, it downloads it (assuming a licensed copy of AnyDVD). If the key hasn't been found yet, it extracts the title key (MUST be done using an original disc) and uploads the title key to the server so that it can be retrieved by other users (and thus unprotect protected images) and added to the database of future versions. That's mistake number 1.

    Mistake number 2 is this idea of Cinavia and keys. You've misunderstood a lot surrounding that. Cinavia is NOT a key. It's a digital watermark. It's a signal embedded in the audio. This signal can represent certain conditions per the Cinavia "spec". If it's one type of signal, it's for movies in the theater and thus should not be allowed on any home theater equipment. If it's a different type of signal, it means that it's a blu-ray and the player should only play it if the disc has been AACS encrypted. That's for the player to check. It's not something "Cinavia" does. Again, Cinavia is nothing more than a signal embedded in the audio.
  15. jeremy duncan

    jeremy duncan Well-Known Member

    "It's still incoherent. But please, DON'T try again." - neuron2

    I will try one more time then. Have some patience with me.

    The key is hidden is the audio, the audio is mathematically treated like a video, and the video is treated with watermarks over a period of 20 minutes that when folded in a summary mathermatical design creates a key that the player reads and accepts as authentic.
    That is why after a new video is put through the fold is already made and a new fold is easier to id as unauthentic because the part the fold should be folding is not present.

    I will reword that in case it's too difficult, in point form as I know this is easier to read:
    a.) the audio is converted to video using math, this is so the converted audio can be given visable watermarks.
    b.) the visable watermarks are displayed over a period of 20 minutes and are incoherant, they must be remuxed. Once they are remuxed they add up to a string that is read by cinavia.
    it is impossible to guess the math to remux them, it would take brute force calculations and each test would take 20 minutes for each string tested.
    if the string is very long then it would become impossible to guess tring easily.
    c.) once the string is made after being remuxed the unremuxed string is still there to id new video to see if it's being converted to a new unremuxed string, that's why the newer video is easily id's more fast than when the video was first played. it's looking for the hash that's being formed.
    d.) it's no use looking for the audio mark, it's invisable, it's designed to be counted by abstract methods so strange even my mind can't grasp how they did it. the only way to get the hash is to get in the stored memory where it id's the new video being created and comparing it to the previously made string.
  16. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    The 20 minute mark doesn't signify how large the sample is for Cinavia to be detected. It's an arbitrary limit they put on The Losers before the player cuts the audio. No one, to my knowledge, at this time knows the sample length that Cinavia requires to detect it. However, some guesses can be made considering so called "cam" releases that have Cinavia on them are detected almost instantly and the entire video playback is shut down with an error 1. This suggests it doesn't require a very big sample in order to detect Cinavia. An interest experiment could be done by cutting a minute or so from The Losers audio track with Cinavia in it, and splicing it into 20 or so minutes of audio that doesn't contain Cinavia and see if it still triggers it.
  17. John-Doe

    John-Doe New Member

    After reading through all of the discussion to date, my contribution is some patent information:


    Patent Application 12/426,158 (filed April 17, 2009) - Embedding and extraction of information from an embedded content using replica modulation

    Of particular interest due to discussing surviving lossy audio compression and signal processing detection.
    Patent #7289961 - Data hiding via phase manipulation of audio signals

    Patents filed by Joseph M. Winograd - Chief Technology Officer of Verance
    Patent #11/115,990 (Application) - Security enhancements of digital watermarks for multi-media content

    Also of interest are patents filed by individuals affiliated with Dr. Winograd:
    Rade Petrovic:
    Babak Tehranchi:

    Patent #7606366 - Apparatus and method for embedding and extracting information in analog signals using distributed signal features and replica modulation

    Patent #7024018 - Watermark position modulation

    Patent #6737957 - Remote control signaling using audio watermarks Interesting, if not related explicitly to subject at hand.

    Application 11/880,139 - Signal continuity assessment using embedded watermarks
  18. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Nice research. :)
  19. John-Doe

    John-Doe New Member

    In particular, reference "Third Embodiment" on page 8. Do believe that's the animal we're dealing with.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
  20. Achernar

    Achernar Well-Known Member

    Have two of them, but they are showing signs of aging, especially the "younger" one. But see below why I can't be happy.

    Just to make it clear; I was concerned my backups could become useless (warning: a speculation) in case players start blacklisting folder names, like ANY!. I'm very well aware my old backups will play even on Cinavia enabled players (for the simple reason that none of the originals contain watermark). I was referring to the future backups, though my words were somewhat unclear and imprecise. I'm giving my best to express myself as clear as possible.

    Not quite acceptable for me - I have a small working room with many computers (most of them are not even PCs), and the main PC for backing up and test playing has only 21" display. I prefer to watch the movies possibly with my family in another room, on a big plasma screen. For that, a standalone is very convenient.
    One more thing, I like 3D movies... maybe I'm becoming trendy, but would like to have a 3D player (with bonus capability: Cinavia detection :bang:).

    That turned out to be mission impossible. None of the foreign companies I've contacted so far are willing to ship internationally, and my local domestic shops are "in step" with the trends (don't have older player models, with question marks over "why would someone ever want to buy the old stuff").
    Plus, hope alone is not enough, would prefer some guarantees. :D

    Pretty much the same as 2), with the addition that in my country "streaming devices" are considered somewhat exotic and hard to find. :(

    Absolutely, will never buy the disc with this disguised tyrannical parasite.

    In case of "worst case scenario" I would be forced to go with 1).