Blocked BD copy playback (Cinavia)

Discussion in 'High Definition Software' started by skypx, Jul 13, 2010.

  1. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    And do not cross post. One post in one thread is sufficient. Thanks. :policeman:
  2. sacflies

    sacflies Active Member

    If this has nothing to do with cinavia how can you explain the fact that 3 movies known to have cinavia copy protection (The Social Network, Takers, and Salt) all do the same thing as described above? And ALL other blu-ray rips that I have on the same HDD play perfectly fine. Coincidence? I doubt it. I have just tried to play The Social Network, Takers, and Salt and all have stopped playing (audio and video), giving me a black screen then "Invalid Format" message. I then played several rips that have had no mention of having cinavia and they all play fine. This sounds like cinavia to me. And it appears to be on my new LG LD400 set. I know, I have not found any info on cinavia being on TV's yet anywhere (well there is now since I am reporting it). But what other explanation could it be about what is happening here? I am using MakeMKV and ripping movie only. I have not had any problems with any other rips other than the rips with known cinavia copy protection.

    I am going to try and play these 3 rips on another older HDTV thru the same WD TV ver 2 later today and see what happens. If they play fine on that HDTV then that should be proof positive that this is cinavia and it is on my new LG LD400 32 inch HDTV. I think the above paragraph is pretty strong evidence that this is cinavia, but just for the sake of providing more evidence I will try it on another older monitor.

    And guess what? I just right now tried a blu-ray rip of Dispicable Me and, you guessed it, does not play. Same scenario as above. During the opening minute it stops playing. Dispicable Me is another blu-ray known to have cinavia. I can even test 2 more movies known to have cinavia (The Karate Kid and Losers...haven't ripped these yet) if we need even further evidence.

    If it looks like cinavia and smells like cinavia...
  3. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Cinavia protected discs display an actual Cinavia error message 3 for Blu-ray backups and only mute the audio. The symptoms you describe do NOT fit the Cinavia protection pattern at all.
  4. Adbear

    Adbear Well-Known Member

    Not sure about Despicable me. I'm pretty sure my back up copy doesn't have Cinavia as I watched it on my PS3 and it plays fine.
    Are you backing up as blu-ray structure or playing back as mkv? Some players won't play mkv's over a certain bitrate. It would make no sense to put Cinavia on the TV as it's not required and would be another license fee the manufacturers would have to pay for with no reason. It's only required at the decryption stage on the player

    Also do we have confirmation that The Social Network has Cinavia as it's not on OUR confirmed list
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  5. sacflies

    sacflies Active Member

    Makes sense that both audio and video would stop working on cinavia protected Blu-ray disc rips if the cinavia detection is on the TV. Maybe this is how they are implementing the detection on TV's and since this hasn't been reported before we wouldn't know how it would be implemented on TV's.

    I know you guys are skeptical but I am convinced this is cinavia. I am planning on returning this TV and getting a non-cinavia TV!
  6. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    :rolleyes: A Cinavia capable TV, eh? And how does that work? The player passes along the TRUSTED_SOURCE information for the TV to know whether or not there's an original disc in the player or not? What you're saying here is impossible. There is absolutely no way for the _TV_ to implement Cinavia. Color me beyond skeptical and put me in the "not a chance" category.
  7. sacflies

    sacflies Active Member

    I am using MakeMKV and ripping full quality to hard drive (movie only) and then playing these MKV files back with WD TV ver 2 to the LG LD400. This is how I have done all my blu-ray rips and only the ones that I have seen mention of cinavia are not playing so far.

    I was thrown by Dispicable Me at first as well. Then I looked and there ARE reports of this having cinavia as well. You say your copy of Dispicable Me plays fine...there could be an explanation for this involving store bought copies and "rental" copies found at Red Box kiosks or possibly Netflix copies. The protection could only be on the cheaper "rental" copies and not on store bought copies. That's possible?? Makes some sense. I thought The Social Network was definitely reported to have cinavia. But it too could be only on the "rental" versions. Has this been reported anywhere? Just trying to think it thru.
  8. Adbear

    Adbear Well-Known Member

    Sounds more like your WD is either having problems playing them or not outputting the correct signal. Cinavia will allow you to see the picture but mutes the audio and displays a message
  9. sacflies

    sacflies Active Member

    Then give me another explanation for this? I admit I am not as technically astute as many of you are on all this stuff and maybe I am missing something here, but what other explanation can there be? It's just a coincidence that only rips of blu-rays believed to have cinavia copy protection are not playing?

    If I play these rips on the same WD TV version 2 off the same hard drive to an older TV and they play fine, will that convince you? I am going to try this later tonight. We will see.
  10. Adbear

    Adbear Well-Known Member

    Already given you a reason, and exactly what you would expect to see if it was Cinavia
  11. sacflies

    sacflies Active Member

    Yes that has been the case with players that have cinavia detection. We have not seen a TV with it and how it would respond. Maybe this is how they are having new TV's respond to play back of cinavia protected blu-ray rips.

    Maybe I am wrong and am just missing something but for now I am sticking to my cinavia-enabled TV guns! Oooops...I shouldn't say "guns"!!
  12. Adbear

    Adbear Well-Known Member

    You do also realise this screen has been out for quite a while, And no one else has reported it as having any 'cinavia' issues
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  13. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Look, how Cinavia works has been explained over and over and over again. However, for your sake, I will explain it one more time. When the audio is mastered for the disc, a signal is embedded before encoding. This signal can survive all types of re-encoding and even analog recording. The DVD or Blu-ray is then mastered and mass produced. When you get it home, stick it in a Cinavia aware blu-ray *PLAYER*, the player detects the signal in the audio stream and then checks to see if the disc is a TRUSTED_SOURCE. That means, for the sake of this discussion, that it has AACS. If it's an original, then the AACS check passes and the audio is allowed to play. If the disc or whatever media you've converted it to (i.e. MKV) does not contain a valid AACS certificate, then the player will play for about 20 minutes and then display a Cinavia error message 3, and then will mute the audio. NOTE: the video continues to play.

    That is *ALL* Cinavia does. Nothing more, nothing less. Implementing it in anyting but a player is impossible. Only the player itself can check the TRUSTED_SOURCE and determine if the media it's playing is valid or not. A TV has *NO IDEA* if what is being played is valid or not.

    Therefore, I'm telling you with absolute certainty, that whatever the issue is, it's not Cinavia, and it's certainly NOT "Cinavia in the TV".

    Please understand that the absense of a direct explanation for why your player is doing this to your backups is NOT evidence in the positive of your theory of a Cinavia enabled TV.
  14. sacflies

    sacflies Active Member

    You may be confusing this model with the LG LD450 which I believe was released Jan 2010. I believe this particular model was just released last Oct/Nov 2010 and may be only available at Best Buy. Not sure about that though. And you are saying "this screen" has been out for quite a while...maybe the screen has, don't know, but this particular model of TV has only been out maybe 3 months. The screen itself wouldn't have cinavia detection! It would be within the electronics of the TV components, of course.
  15. PrincipalityFusion

    PrincipalityFusion Well-Known Member

    You're a really difficult one, aren't you:doh: Let me ask you a question. If your TV is "seeing" Cinavia, then how does it know that you aren't playing a store purchased disk? In that case, wouldn't it be cutting you off unfairly?
  16. sacflies

    sacflies Active Member

    Excuse my ignorance, but why couldn't a TV be made to detect this "cinavia" audio signal? The audio signal passes thru the TV as well. It produces sound. Why couldn't the TV detect this signal in the audio stream and determine whether or not it is legit and if not shut down playback? A TV could conceivably have the same circuitry to detect this signal as a blu-ray player has...correct? Just because it hasn't been seen before doesn't mean they couldn't do it.

    One way around cinavia has been to play back rips thru devices like the WD TV with older firmwares. I am not even sure if the WD TV Live or Live Plus with current firmware have cinavia detection. I haven't looked into this (??). But I know for sure that the older versions of WD TV do not. And that is what I am using. So putting cinavia on TV's would stop this as well. It would begin to shut down this cinavia work around. That would be the incentive to put cinavia detection in TV's. It would shut down virtually any playback of such rips that have cinavia to the TV.

    Like I said I will try playing these MKV files on an older monitor and see what happens later tonite. Same WD TV and same HDD.

    Also, the message I am getting is definitely from the TV. It is not from the WD TV. If it were a problem that the WD TV was having playing back the file I would see evidence of this within the WD TV interface, not the TV.
  17. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    Yep, the TV cannot discriminate between "valid" and "invalid" signals, since when they reach the TV, they've already been decrypted long before, at the player, or at AnyDVD HD. The only component right now that can detect it is the component that does the decryption (to see if there's any encryption at all--thus a "valid" disc).

    Furthermore, while one can see how they could implement it in the receivers (maybe by "updating" HDMI to allow player authentication by the receiver whenever Cinavia is detected), implementing on the TV would just make no sense, cause in a typical home theater environment the TV doesn't even receive audio, which is where Cinavia is encoded.
  18. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Because the TV has absolutely no way of telling if the signal it's getting is from a legitimate original disc or a backup copy. How could it possibly know the difference? The signal is there in both cases. It doesn't "magically go away" if you play an original. The signal is there to tell the player that "hey, you should check to see if my protection is still in place." How is the TV going to do that?

    Not in my home theater, it doesn't. At all. The TV gets absolutely NO audio signal whatsoever from any of my devices in my home theater setup.

    How is it going to determine if it's legit or not? Ask nicely? Magic? It can detect the signal, but, then what? And yes, I'm telling you, it can't be done.

    Along with valid, legitimate, original discs, too. I assume you understand the concept of a lawsuit, right? If I spent 20-30 bucks on a disc and my TV decided that it wasn't going to allow it, I can tell you right now, somoene's getting sued.

    Good luck with that. If it works on your older monitor, then you may want to figure out what's wrong with your TV, cause it sure isn't Cinavia.

    Then your TV isn't accepting the signal that the player is sending it. That seems....bad.
  19. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Don't start this again! :p In the end, even if the receiver detected the signal, it would still need a mechanism to communicate back to a player that actually understands, and figure out some way of asking it nicely if the media is a TRUSTED_SOURCE. And then the player has to be able to determine that and communicate back to the receiver "yey or nay". What possible good could come of such a cumbersome methodology? Assumably if the player knows enough to listen to the receiver's request, it probably already knows how to check for Cinavia itself and validate the TRUSTED_SOURCE. There's absolutely no logic in putting Cinavia detection anywhere but at the player level as it's the only one that can validate the source media. As we've pointed out before, Cinavia isn't mythical or magical. It's simply a signal embedded in an audio stream that, if detected, directs the player to validate the source media. That's about it.
  20. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    P.S. Since you said you're running an older firmware on your WD TV, my gut instinct tells me that, congratulations, you've found a bug that was fixed in a later version. Update the firmware and try your MKV's again. ;)