Blocked BD copy playback (Cinavia)

Discussion in 'High Definition Software' started by skypx, Jul 13, 2010.

  1. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Well, DVD-A only had one watermark afaik. Cinavia has several different types and is extendable. So, it's a more advanced version, but, how it differs other than that I have no idea.
  2. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    I don't think so, the watermark has to blend in with the audio, so it should be different for different content, but have something in common that the player will detect. From some reading at hydrogenaudio IIRC, the DVD-A watermark was very resilient too (though that's another point). I think somebody would have broken DVD-A if it was the same for all discs, especially when the paper was actually put out, and not repressed like the SDMI wanted.
  3. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    True enough.
  4. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    BTW, I would like to see just 1 disc with Cinavia defeated, that would be something. Even if it can't be broken generally.
  5. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    That would be something. I think we're a ways away from that point though.
  6. PrincipalityFusion

    PrincipalityFusion Well-Known Member

    I'm starting to think that if Cinavia is going to be defeated, it's going to be from the player side as it is just impractical to try and remove the Cinavia signal from the audio track. Removing the signal from the audio, i think, will be like cutting of your leg to take care of a hang nail.

    No, i think the solution will lie in somehow neutralizing the code that detects Cinavia. Then i thought however, that the response to that will be for the studios to put out disks that try to detect hacked firmware (in the case of standalone players) or compromised software players.

    This is an important point, i think, because to defeat that response, it puts it squarely back in AnyDVDs court to detect and squash any such response code on a disk.

    So i guess i'm sort of changing my opinion as to what tool will defeat this. Initially, i was firmly on board with it being the duty of CloneBD at some point. Seeing though how inefficient it's going to be to attack the signal directly, i'm thinking it's going to be the player code that will be the point of attack.

    I know i'm probably missing someting, any thoughts??
  7. Tin_Foil_Hat

    Tin_Foil_Hat Member

    Just to clarify

    This is my final post...
    Is not this forum to voice ideas, to invoke thought?

    I left for the following simple reasons, and this post is simply to clarify my position.
    I am not angry, never was!
    I simply pointed out that an individual's response was in direct violation of the rules of the forum, that person held the charge of monitoring that very forum, not in anger.
    Those same rules clearly clearly state that this is how flaming starts.

    I did not take my toys and go home.
    I got frustrated with know it all responses that have not tried all the obvious.
    I left for the simple reason, that it is clear that using Akim's Razor is being ignored here.
    Since we do not have the detection code it is very poor judgement to say, that won't work unless you try it.
    Why input ideas, if the input is never given any consideration, just a knee jerk reaction by one or two persons, however without any testing we will never know.
    With this being the case why bother further input on my part.

    It is the unfortunate common tendency of techies to over think, this often causes a serious delay in finding a resolution to any problem.
    In the 80's, techies failed, it was not a techie that tried the green marker around the edge on those copy protected CD's, it was a kid.
    Bell Labs took ideas that were crazy and found obvious solutions, simply because they had the frame of mind any thing can be realized if you try.

    There was no creed given to the obvious, the simple playback at 1.5 speed bypasses the program's ability to detect the watermark, this is a proven fact.
    Knowing this, lies the greater question, what is this threshold, would 1.1 speed work?
    Frame dropping would be the best way of testing that hypothesis.
    I have no way of testing this so I posed the question.

    Just because Cinavia claims the lock cannot be picked, why believe them.
    Any detection software has limitations that can be exploited, this one is no exception.
    It may not be necessary to reverse engineer, however that course may well be faster, and very well be required, but why overlook the obvious.
  8. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    I guess my work on the losers disc doesn't count then? I don't just go around stating I know what I'm talking about for no reason. I spent an enormous amount of time trying all kinds of tests and found that by and large cinavia it's extremely robust. In any case you are free to discuss any idea you want. I have said I will refrain from commenting on them. You can get input from the many other people on this thread .
  9. Prosperity

    Prosperity Active Member


    Read the wikipedia post, one thing that puzzles me it says that it is triggered by removal of the encryption as that it what it looks for initially and then the watermark if the encryption is not there.

    Is it possible to re burn a disk reapplying the the encyption that was removed in the first place, such that it is an exact duplicate of the original disk.

    Not having done a search to see if this has been asked before apologies in advance.

    As the purpose of backing up the disk in the first place is to preserve the original, whether the back up was encrypted or not would not make any difference to the owner of the original.
  10. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    It's wrong. When I tested the losers I converted to DTS and added it to the dvd. Cinavia was detected quite nicely. So I don't know where they came up with that but it's completely wrong.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  11. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Another product adds aacs encryption to their backups to fool cinavia, but the problem with that is the cinavia detection routine could be updated to check the media type at some point. That'd make those backups useless. So not a good option.
  12. mike20021969

    mike20021969 Well-Known Member

    Converted what to DTS? Is DTS not an audio track in its own right?

    I wonder why they haven't updated the detection yet to check for this workaround?
  13. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Converted isn't really the right word. Extracted the core DTS from the DTS-HD MA is more appropriate. In any case, on the DVD there was only a DTS track and Cinavia's detected just fine. I get annoyed by all these "time wasting magic work arounds" that keeping coming up. "oh, if you stand on your head while gargling garlic water, this website that my cousin's dog's friend claims that Cinavia is completely removed from the hyperdrive motivator in your player." :rolleyes: Here's a fact. If the audio track you started with has Cinavia embedded in it, the audo track you end up with also has Cinavia embedded in it. I don't care what format you try. I've literally tried most from stereo AAC to MP3 to AC3 to DTS and a few others. ALL were detected on the PS3 as having Cinavia.

    Because I suspect this gets into a somewhat gray area for them. Technically speaking, a disc with AACS encryption in tact is a "trusted source." That is their current definition. At the moment, that definition doesn't include what media the content is on. I'm guessing to change that they have to change the Cinavia licensing. It's something I'm sure they can do, but, it's probably a bit more involved than simply updating the detection code.

    I will make this point, however. Those that argue that it can never be changed because home recorders are a valid trusted source fail to understand Cinavia. Error message 3, the Cinavia signal found on *commercial blu-ray and dvd*, will NEVER be found on a home recording. So they miss the point on this when they argue that home recordings are a trusted source. Yes, they are. And if Cinavia were ever added to them, they'd get their own signal and the Cinavia detection routine would get a new error message. Therefore I don't buy the argument that the detection routine can't be updated because of the validity of home recordings. Those will never have a commercial blu-ray/dvd Cinavia signal embedded in them, so, from a technical stand point, there's nothing stopping them from identifying the media when that signal is detected.
  14. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    That Wikipedia article has that stupid statement sourced from a Verance press release, which doesn't even mention DTS or says anything about it.
  15. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    But wikipedia is ALWAYS right! :p There is SO much disinformation about Cinavia out there it's insane. The great thing about all the "magic work arounds" out there is that it requires you to take it on faith so that you go and try it. Imagine if I just pulled a "method" out of my nether region something like this:

    See how easy it is to create complete and total BS? Yet someone somewhere will try it, wasting time and money on a solution that is complete and total nonsense.

    WARNING: The above instructions are guaranteed to not work and will in fact waste time and an expensive disc.
  16. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    I'm still not very clear on what your propositions are...

    Analyze the watermark? Compare sources? All well and good, but how?

    I don't mind angry, profane internet debate, but that's just me :). But in this case, although the responses might have been blunt, they weren't flaming. Have a little thicker skin, it's what I'd say.

    They have tried. Some things like you said just plainly won't do because of massive quality damage, even if they did work, which is dubious.


    "Kid" and "techie" are so not mutually exclusive. E.g. "DVD Jon". Also the "kid" who did the green marker thing was enough of a "techie" to know where the protection was in the disc, and how it worked. He didn't do it just for the hell of it. I would say the average 15-year-old is more of a techie than the average 30-year-old in any given generation.

    You are complaining a lot but not listening. People can test it if they want, but for most of us it's a non-starter cause playing back like that it's simply not tolerable.

    Straw man... no one is saying that.

    That doesn't mean that the rewards will warrant the effort, especially when there are very easy workarounds.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2011
  17. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    Samuri, I just realized there's a long Cinavia thread at doom9... anything worth mentioning that hasn't been mentioned here?
  18. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Nope. Same kinds of speculation/nonsense as in this thread. They've posted links to the patents over there, but, I think they were linked to here at one point, too. Every few weeks someone has this "brilliant idea" that "no one's thought of" and how easy it is to defeat Cinavia with it! Yawn. Here we are a year later and the only "solutions" we have are to add aacs encryption to the backup (um, no thanks) or to use a non-Cinavia infected player. All the "brilliant ideas" have been tried and failed to come up with any results whatsoever.

    That's why I have to laugh when I get called a "know it all"....I've been researching this crap for a year now and have done my own extensive testing. I've seen what works.....and what doesn't. I've read every single post in both Cinavia threads on this forum and every single post on the doom9 thread. Guess what? LOTS of stuff gets repeated as "new" ("I searched and didn't find anyone suggesting comparing two audio tracks to find Cinavia." Um, yea, your searching abilities are FAIL) but hardly any REAL new information is brought to the table. I know work has been done behind the scenes on analyzing Cinavia, but, as of yet, no results there, either.

    The one semi-promising idea I've seen discussed recently is about attacking the players that support Cinavia to remove detection. That's been done supposedly on the PS3 using a custom firmware. I've not tried it myself but it's said to work and removes detection. That falls in line with the "don't use a player that detects it" methodology that I use.
  19. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    I see, I'm gonna subscribe. Thanks
  20. andy o

    andy o Well-Known Member

    oooh lordy lord, look at this copypasta job that just popped up in the past few days