Help with my HD-DVD frustration

Discussion in 'High Definition Software' started by BigCoolJesus, Jun 15, 2012.

  1. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Indeed it does. Excellent!
  2. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member

    One last question/issue:

    When eac3to is doing it's 3rd Pass : process and is creating the WAV file in the temporary folder (before the actual bluray structure is put together/finalized), the percentage complete bar will stall on 13% for about 10-12 minutes before continuing on at normal pace (usually it takes about 20-25 seconds for each percentage on my computer). The computer itself never freezes, nor does task manager report ClownBD/eacto3 as "Not Responding" and the final product comes out without any audio/video sync issues. It also says the above step is completed successfully at only 50-52%. Again, the final product is intact and in-sync.

    It did this for 2Fast 2Furious, 40 Year Old Virgin, and just now did it for Anchorman. It did not do this for 300, I assume because 300 is a Dolby TrueHD audio track that does not need the conversion step like the aforementioned DD+ movies.

    Is this just a simple known issue with the progress bar not reporting correctly?

    Last edited: Jun 15, 2012
  3. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    No clue. As long as the end product comes out to your satisfaction I don't think it's an issue.
  4. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member

    I figured as much. Just trying to satisfy my curiosity, that's all.

    Thanks again for everything
  5. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member

    OK, OK....hopefully this is my last question:

    I just ripped Apollo 13 and the overall file size was 24.1GB, which when imported into ImgBrn reports as 26GB of disc space needed. If I re-rip using AC3 as the audio output (instead of unconverted), would I be able to makeup the extra space?

    Also, should I use 640 as the bitrate setting when I check the AC3 audio format box?

  6. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    Probably. All we can say is try it. You only have time to lose. :)
  7. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member


    What bit rate setting do I choose when using AC3 audio format? 640?
    Can I use one of the lower bit rates to save space or no?
  8. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    You can, but, it will lower the quality since the original is higher bitrate. So at this point, re-encoding will lower the quality but also lower the size. It's a battle. :)
  9. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member

    So using AC3 with 640 bitrate shrunk the entire disc size down to 18GB :) Good enough for me

    Looking at some of my finished rips with Media Info, the ones that I left unconverted (PCM audio) are showing 4-5GB of size just for the audio file. The audio file for Apollo 13, the one I made AC3, is showing 700MB file size.

    Pretty big size difference between uncompressed (PCM) and compressed (AC3). I'll take it to stay under 25GB.
  10. YaniD

    YaniD Well-Known Member

    ClownBD generally does the right thing, however LPCM is stored on Bluray in a different mapping order than as standard in say an mkv.

    When ClownBD converts DD+ to LPCM, I think it just does it in standard mapping order, however when muxing into Bluray structure, LPCM needs to be remapped from standard to Bluray mapping and I don't think ClownBD allows for this.

    ClownBD uses eac3to for audio processing and there is a switch in eac3to to remap to Bluray order. I think you can run ClownBD in batch mode and modify the batch file it uses to include this switch.

    Depending on how you intend to playback your HD-DVD conversions and the formats the player supports, you can use eac3to to create an mkv from the video and convert DD+ to LPCM or FLAC (no need to remap the LPCM order), then mux into the final mkv with mkvmerge. FLAC will give you effectively losslessly compressed LPCM at TrueHD sizes. Unfortunately not many players support FLAC in mkv.

    Being a lossless AV conversion, the mkv can be used as source for any future conversion to Bluray structure if, for example, a freeware TrueHD or DTS-HD MA encoder became available.

    The important thing is to retain as much of the original HD-DVD quality as possible: converting DD+ to DD will lose something that can't be recovered later.

    Unfortunately the studios have ensured that an HD-DVD->Bluray conversion is either not easy or takes up much more space. One has to be really obtuse to design LPCM on Bluray with a different mapping order to every other LPCM implementation.
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  11. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member've lost me :(

    Are you saying that when I burn one of my movies that went from DD+ to LPCM audio, it won't play correctly on my Bluray player?
  12. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member

    This is what Media Info returns on one of my DD+ to LPCM conversions:

    ID : 4352 (0x1100)
    Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
    Format : PCM
    Format settings, Endianness : Big
    Format settings, Sign : Signed
    Muxing mode : Blu-ray
    Codec ID : 128
    Duration : 1h 33mn
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 6 912 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 6 channels
    Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth : 24 bits
    Delay relative to video : -83ms
    Stream size : 4.50 GiB (22%)
    Language : English

    The Muxing mode reports as Bluray. Does this mean the LPCM is setup correctly for Bluray playback?
  13. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    It should be ok. ClownBD should be doing the right thing. Try one before you start burning a bunch of them. Make sure that one plays. BD-RE's are highly recommended for learning. :)
  14. rik1138

    rik1138 Well-Known Member

    If you want to use the EVODemux + TSMuxer route, there's another step involved to remove the pulldown flag... I think Clown might be taking care of this for you, but if you wanted to do the EVO/TS route, you need two tools:
    H264info.exe for H264 files, and vc1conv.exe for VC1 files. You run the video stream after the EVODemux step through the appropriate tool, and then TSMux... Works perfectly...

    These are tools created back in the early days of the HD DVD/Blu-ray war (long before ClownBD existed)... So they probably aren't necessary anymore if you use something like Clown... But just in case you were curious. :D
  15. SamuriHL

    SamuriHL Moderator (en)

    ClownBD uses EAC3TO for extraction of the streams, so, yea, it'll handle pulldown quite nicely. No extra steps needed.
  16. YaniD

    YaniD Well-Known Member

    Didn't you say that you were getting the wrong channels being output on playback (Front and Surround swapped or something)?

    As I understand it, wav files (LPCM) have a specific channel order when played as a standalone file or muxed into an mkv or other container: something like FL,FR,C,LFE,SL,SR.

    However, LPCM is stored in Bluray in a different channel order.

    ClownBD uses Eac3to for audio processing. Eac3to extracts audio assuming the destination is a standard wav file or equivalent and handles the mapping required. Consequently, if that extracted LPCM is muxed into an mkv, it will play fine with the correct channel order. However, if that LPCM is muxed back into a Bluray structure, the channel order on playback will be incorrect.

    Thus, DD+ will be converted to LPCM in standard channel order by ClownBD, which is fine if you were making an mkv but not okay if you are making a Bluray.

    It is possible ClownBD has been fixed recently to allow for this different channel mapping, but I don't think it takes it into account.

    It is very difficult finding any online documentation about this.

    I would suggest creating an ISO or similar Bluray structure that can be played back on a PC to check this out: play a known HD-DVD with front sounds only and note which speakers the sounds come from; convert to Bluray as normal and play back noting which speakers those sounds come from now. If the channel mapping is okay, then I am mistaken, but if it is incorrect, you will need to remap the channels somehow. I wouldn't burn to disc until you resolve this potential issue to your satisfaction.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  17. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member

    My computer setup is only 2.0 and I was merely using VLC player when I first tried ClownBD a week ago and reported the "strange mix-up of sound cues" problem I thought existed. It was not a channel mapping problem, rather just a problem with the way I was playing back the movies on my PC after ripping them.

    When I use Media Info and look at any of the HD-DVD's I ripped that have LPCM tracks, it reports the audio as Bluray structure and the channel positions as Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE ........which is the same exact position order as AC3 and TrueHD audio tracks.
    Also, I came across a thread on AVS Forums regarding eac3to which said that the default option of eac3to rips audio to Bluray channel mapping positions.

    From everything I have read and seen I should be good. But the ultimate test will be when I burn my first rip to bluray and test it out on my home theater setup. Will probably do that tonight and report back.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  18. BigCoolJesus

    BigCoolJesus Member

    Just burnt my first Bluray disc ever, 2Fast 2Furious which I ripped from my HD-DVD copy. Audio was DD+ converted to LPCM via eac3to using ClownBD (process we have been discussing on this thread).

    I played perfectly! Dialogue was coming from Center speaker. Left and Right Fronts carried forward soundstage audio. Surround speakers carried appropriate audio. And Subwoofer carried the LFE track perfectly. Looks like ClownBD/eac3to knows exactly what it's doing.

    I am using 25GB Verbatim BD-R discs which are rated at 6x write speed, however ImgBurn detected 12x capable speeds due to my burner being brand new/capable. Needless to say it only took 10 mins to burn 22GB worth of data. Holy cow am I happy that everything has come together perfectly!

    Thanks for everything guys!
  19. com5984

    com5984 New Member

    Samuri I would like to rip all mine to mkv and leave them on my server, are you using clown to do this? I don't care about file size but very important for me to retain both AQ and PQ.
    Can you let me know what program and settings you are using.

  20. mike_r

    mike_r Moderator (de)

    See here....